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April 13, 2003, 10:17 PM

link

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFr...629399,00.html

article

March 31, 2003

Oil industry suppressed plans for 200-mpg car
By Simon de Bruxelles



THE original blueprints for a device that could have revolutionised the motor car have been discovered in the secret compartment of a tool box.
A carburettor that would allow a car to travel 200 miles on a gallon of fuel caused oil stocks to crash when it was announced by its Canadian inventor Charles Nelson Pogue in the 1930s.

But the carburettor was never produced and, mysteriously, Pogue went overnight from impoverished inventor to the manager of a successful factory making oil filters for the motor industry. Ever since, suspicion has lingered that oil companies and car manufacturers colluded to bury Pogue’s invention.

Now a retired Cornish mechanic has enlisted the help of the University of Plymouth to rebuild Pogue’s revolutionary carburettor, known as the Winnipeg, from blueprints he found hidden beneath a sheet of plywood in the box.

The controversial plans once caused panic among oil companies and rocked the Toronto Stock Exchange when tests carried out on the carburettor in the 1930s proved that it worked.

Patrick Davies, 72, from St Austell, had owned the tool box for 40 years but only recently decided to clean it out. As well as drawings of the carburettor, the envelope contained two pages of plans, three test reports and six pages of notes written by Pogue.

They included a report of a test that Pogue had done on his lawnmower, which showed that he had managed to make the engine run for seven days on a quart (just under a litre) of petrol.

The documents also described how the machine worked by turning petrol into a vapour before it entered the cylinder chamber, reducing the amount of fuel needed for combustion.

Mr Davies has had the patent number on the plans authenticated, proving that they are genuine documents.

He said: “I couldn’t believe what I saw. I used to be a motor mechanic and I knew this was something else altogether. I was given the tool box by a friend after I helped to paint her house in 1964. Her husband had spent a lot of time in Canada.”

The announcement of Pogue’s invention caused enormous excitement in the American motor industry in 1933, when he drove 200 miles on one gallon of fuel in a Ford V8. However, the Winnipeg was never manufactured commercially and after 1936 it disappeared altogether amid allegations of a political cover-up.

Dr Murray Bell, of the University of Plymouth’s department of mechanical and marine engineering, said he would consider trying to build a model of the Pogue carburettor.

Engineers who have tried in the past to build a carburettor using Pogue’s theories have found the results less than satisfactory. Charles Friend, of Canada’s National Research Council, told Marketplace, a consumer affairs programme: “You can get fantastic mileage if you’re prepared to de-rate the vehicle to a point where, for example, it might take you ten minutes to accelerate from 0 to 30 miles an hour.”


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April 14, 2003, 09:07 AM

This is complete and utter GARBAGE. :mad2:

Carbs simply mix fuel and air at certain ratios (around 13 parts air to 1 part fuel). The real losses are parasitic in the car: brakes, rolling tires, aerodynamic drag, engine friction losses, drivetrain friction losses.

Go buy some magnets to "fix" your sore knee...

Better yet, go read a book!


-- Chris
BMW R1100s
(previous rides: '82 KTM250, '95 CBR600F3, '98 Buell S3T, 2000 Hayabusa, 2008 R1200R)

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke
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April 14, 2003, 11:24 AM

i didnt claim it was fact, but it seems logical to me to assume we arent ass eficient as possible, or else progress would be non existent, i beleive its possible even if its not whats stated above, but hey, caying its garbage is making claims you dont know, maybe you think it is, but you aint seen this shit firsthand, you dont know any better than anyone else
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April 14, 2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:
we arent ass eficient
hey cool, we can say ass without getting edited!!

Stillie, you're such an ass!
Lee you're an ass-hole!
Scot, kiss my ass!!

Anyone else want some of this?





[Edited on 4/14/2003 by rddy]
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April 14, 2003, 01:19 PM

hahahahaha
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April 14, 2003, 03:29 PM

Quote:
Quote:
we arent ass eficient
hey cool, we can say ass without getting edited!!

Stillie, you're such an ass!
Lee you're an ass-hole!
Scot, kiss my ass!!

Anyone else want some of this?





[Edited on 4/14/2003 by rddy]


I don't want some of it. I want the whole damned thing rddy.


If you drink and ride, I have no pity for you. At all, ever.
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April 14, 2003, 09:30 PM

I've heard that about you Scot! How bout I just give you a puppy instead?
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April 15, 2003, 12:12 AM

Quote:
This is complete and utter GARBAGE.
Carbs simply mix fuel and air at certain ratios (around 13 parts air to 1 part fuel). The real losses are parasitic in the car: brakes, rolling tires, aerodynamic drag, engine friction losses, drivetrain friction losses.
I don't see what's garbage. That guy (Patrick Davies, 72) found the original specs for the patented carburetor. You can build the carb yourself if you want; just download the patent from http://www.uspto.gov Search under patent number 1,938,497.

But as pointed out in the article, "Engineers who have tried in the past to build a carburettor using Pogue’s theories have found the results less than satisfactory. Charles Friend, of Canada’s National Research Council, told Marketplace, a consumer affairs programme: 'You can get fantastic mileage if you’re prepared to de-rate the vehicle to a point where, for example, it might take you ten minutes to accelerate from 0 to 30 miles an hour.' "

So sure the guy made the engine have great mpg, but I bet acceleration was poor. There is a hybrid motorcycle (http://www.ecycle.com/powersports/hybrid.htm) that gets 180 mpg, but that's because it compromises some of the mpg to get decent acceleration (using an electric motor).

Here is a snippet of the Pogue carburetor patent:


-Ward
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April 15, 2003, 02:35 PM

Observations:
1) Patents are public information, and patents must be specific enough that anyone with the appropriate knowledge can build the device. Therefore, anyone could have built the Pogue carb in the late 30's. The "political cover-up" is hogwash. Selling the carb would have required Pogue's permission and/or royalty fees. You're quite right. I could build the carb and run some tests.
2) The Pogue carb is very likely more efficient than carbs of the time, probably by a few percent. I read the entire patent, and lines 69-75 are rather noteworthy. It pumps fuel against a plate, and also heats the intake air with exhaust gas. Intake charge temperature has a direct effect on power output. But are you really comfortable with the idea of intentionally splashing fuel against a plate in the carb?
3) The 200 miles in a 1933 221cu. in. V8 Ford on a gallon of gas seems very suspect to me. Perhaps they idled 200 miles for 10 hours at 20 miles per hour. Would a 1933 V8 idle for 10 hours on 1 gallon? Maybe. Is it relevent? No.

I am impressed the eCycle can achieve 180mpg thru the use of a regenerative power source and small, direct-injection motor.


-- Chris
BMW R1100s
(previous rides: '82 KTM250, '95 CBR600F3, '98 Buell S3T, 2000 Hayabusa, 2008 R1200R)

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke
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April 17, 2003, 12:36 AM

Quote:
I am impressed the eCycle can achieve 180mpg thru the use of a regenerative power source and small, direct-injection motor.
Ecycle is a joke. I have emails from them from 2001 stating the bike would be available to the public with their rocker crank motor in 2002. now its 2003 and I havent seen it, and they have gone to a yanmar diesel engine since they cant make their revolutionary rocker crank work.

So far I doubt they have achieved anything. its a aprilia SR50 frame with a 5hp yanmar diesel and a little electric motor. anybody could build this, we built more complicated stuff in high school.

I hope they come out with it, but it seems to be going slowly right now.


Matt
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