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spraying water instead of nitrous on zx12r
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spraying water instead of nitrous on zx12r - October 16, 2006, 02:40 PM

i have a 2002 zx12r and i am trying to spray water in to the intake. anybody have any idea if that is possible. i made my project on paper but i need an experts idea.the concept is to have the humidity efect continusly after 5000 rpm and not instantly like the nitrous.
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October 16, 2006, 03:14 PM

Water injection systems have proven their worth in automotive competition (WRC and others), but only for very specific applications--in 99.9% of the cases, those with forced induction. The injection of a finely atomised mist results in additional charge cooling (and thus charge densification) enabling the use of higher boost, greater ignition advance, etc, before detonation occurs. Water injection in a non-forced induction motor (i.e. no super or turbocharger) would have a minimal effect--and then only under very specific ambient conditions (hot and dry intake air), where the cooling/densification properties can occur--similar technique to a "swamp cooler" (evaporative water system used in the american southwest for air conditioning). The increase in power would be minimal--and similar to the difference in power associated with running on a 50degF day vs. a 100F day. While there may be some tertiary effects such as an overall cooler burn and greater volume of post-combustion gas associated with the phase change of water to steam (in effect, adding an additional rankine-cycle like component to the normal otto cycle--somewhat recovering waste exhaust heat), the amount of water injected would be significant as the evaporation of atomized fuel (while gasoline has a lower heat of vaporization than water, it also evaporates much easier) already results in a marked decrease in charge temperature--thus the injected quantity of water would have to be comparable to even net a small increase (since the volumetric increase in combustion gasses at a constant pressure is well in excess of 5:1, for a significant increase in mean pressure during the power stroke--most bike engines run at a mean effective pressure of >200psi), alot of water would have to be included.

example: say you wanted an increase in mean pressure of about 10psi (corresponding to ~5% increase in power, you would need roughly 1-2cc of water injected into the motor per power stroke (for a zx12r), meaning, at 9,000rpm, you would have to inject roughly 100cc of water per minute--a significant amount (especially considering you would have to inject it at high (>100psi) pressure through a good nozzle (see www.aquamist.co.uk for nozzle info) to obtain relatively little power increase

note that this assumes that the water is completely vaporized (a task which would require significant amounts of heat) and requires the combustion process process exactly as before without any associated losses.

problems would be that the decrease in combustion temperature would result in a lower rate of fuel vaporization and burn resulting in incomplete burn and more fuel required for a given amount of actual power, a dilution of the fuel/air mixture resulting in lower burn speed (which would be a significant problem at the high rpm required of a motorcycle engine).

As such, in my opinion, while there may be a few % power gain possible under very specific conditions (both ambient and motor-internal), it is far more likely that 99% of the time such a system would only increase power on a motor that has too aggressive ignition timing and requires the cooling effect to reduce charge temperature during compression to inhibit detonation.

Nitrous works in 3 different ways (one primary, two secondary), the primary reason is the gas (N2O) decomposes into nitrogen and oxygen--increasing the available oxygen to the motor--since the nitrous is injected as a liquid, the volumetric intake capacity of the motor is now able to bring in a greater quantity of oxygen--which then must be burned with a greater quantity of fuel (which is why for optimum results, a wet nitrous system is used where additional fuel is injected, or the motor is tuned to run over-rich (but not too much so) so there is excess fuel available when the nitrous is injected). the secondary methods are charge cooling effects caused by 1. the flash evaporation of the liquid nitrous (which has a boiling point far below freezing at atmospheric pressure, and 2. the endothermic dissociation of the nitrous molecule.

as for reducing the "instant" effects of nitrous, there are many proven ways to reduce this effect including pulse width modulating of nitrous solinoids, various multi-stage injection methods, etc.

note that in general, "humid" air entering a motor will almost uniformly cause it to lose power--the motor is drawing in a certain volume of air, and if some of that air has been replaced with water vapor, there is less oxygen available to combust fuel with.

now, if you are running a turbo, inject away, the hardware and math required to determine the best amounts can be found at the aquamist site (a system I've run on various cars) ( www.aquamist.co.uk )

note, the above numbers are approximations at best, I'm at work and don't ahve the time to do a full on thermodynamic analysis


Marc
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October 16, 2006, 03:17 PM

I was just in the middle of typing a similar response. Thanks for stealing my thunder.
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October 16, 2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by boston-birdman
Water injection systems have proven their worth in automotive competition (WRC and others), but only for very specific applications--in 99.9% of the cases, those with forced induction. The injection of a finely atomised mist results in additional charge cooling (and thus charge densification) enabling the use of higher boost, greater ignition advance, etc, before detonation occurs. Water injection in a non-forced induction motor (i.e. no super or turbocharger) would have a minimal effect--and then only under very specific ambient conditions (hot and dry intake air), where the cooling/densification properties can occur--similar technique to a "swamp cooler" (evaporative water system used in the american southwest for air conditioning). The increase in power would be minimal--and similar to the difference in power associated with running on a 50degF day vs. a 100F day. While there may be some tertiary effects such as an overall cooler burn and greater volume of post-combustion gas associated with the phase change of water to steam (in effect, adding an additional rankine-cycle like component to the normal otto cycle--somewhat recovering waste exhaust heat), the amount of water injected would be significant as the evaporation of atomized fuel (while gasoline has a lower heat of vaporization than water, it also evaporates much easier) already results in a marked decrease in charge temperature--thus the injected quantity of water would have to be comparable to even net a small increase (since the volumetric increase in combustion gasses at a constant pressure is well in excess of 5:1, for a significant increase in mean pressure during the power stroke--most bike engines run at a mean effective pressure of >200psi), alot of water would have to be included.

example: say you wanted an increase in mean pressure of about 10psi (corresponding to ~5% increase in power, you would need roughly 1-2cc of water injected into the motor per power stroke (for a zx12r), meaning, at 9,000rpm, you would have to inject roughly 100cc of water per minute--a significant amount (especially considering you would have to inject it at high (>100psi) pressure through a good nozzle (see www.aquamist.co.uk for nozzle info) to obtain relatively little power increase

note that this assumes that the water is completely vaporized (a task which would require significant amounts of heat) and requires the combustion process process exactly as before without any associated losses.

problems would be that the decrease in combustion temperature would result in a lower rate of fuel vaporization and burn resulting in incomplete burn and more fuel required for a given amount of actual power, a dilution of the fuel/air mixture resulting in lower burn speed (which would be a significant problem at the high rpm required of a motorcycle engine).

As such, in my opinion, while there may be a few % power gain possible under very specific conditions (both ambient and motor-internal), it is far more likely that 99% of the time such a system would only increase power on a motor that has too aggressive ignition timing and requires the cooling effect to reduce charge temperature during compression to inhibit detonation.

Nitrous works in 3 different ways (one primary, two secondary), the primary reason is the gas (N2O) decomposes into nitrogen and oxygen--increasing the available oxygen to the motor--since the nitrous is injected as a liquid, the volumetric intake capacity of the motor is now able to bring in a greater quantity of oxygen--which then must be burned with a greater quantity of fuel (which is why for optimum results, a wet nitrous system is used where additional fuel is injected, or the motor is tuned to run over-rich (but not too much so) so there is excess fuel available when the nitrous is injected). the secondary methods are charge cooling effects caused by 1. the flash evaporation of the liquid nitrous (which has a boiling point far below freezing at atmospheric pressure, and 2. the endothermic dissociation of the nitrous molecule.

as for reducing the "instant" effects of nitrous, there are many proven ways to reduce this effect including pulse width modulating of nitrous solinoids, various multi-stage injection methods, etc.

note that in general, "humid" air entering a motor will almost uniformly cause it to lose power--the motor is drawing in a certain volume of air, and if some of that air has been replaced with water vapor, there is less oxygen available to combust fuel with.

now, if you are running a turbo, inject away, the hardware and math required to determine the best amounts can be found at the aquamist site (a system I've run on various cars) ( www.aquamist.co.uk )

note, the above numbers are approximations at best, I'm at work and don't ahve the time to do a full on thermodynamic analysis
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October 16, 2006, 03:27 PM

If you want to know about making a ZX-12 go fast, talk to Mike James at Fast Lane Cycles.


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October 16, 2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by boston-birdman
I'm at work and don't ahve the time to do a full on thermodynamic analysis

Cool read, I know of no one who would voluntarly do a "full on thermodynamic analysis" of water injection just cause another board member inquired about its aplication, just saying "full on thermodynamic analysis" gives me a headache.

There have been some very suscessful non-forced induction results with water injection. There is a guy that sells his DYI kits out of Winchester Va for cars. Has a Ford Fiesta running 12.7:1 compression and getting 50 mpg.


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October 16, 2006, 03:44 PM

Ah yes, an ultra-high compression case...I was waiting for that suggestion. That specific case is generalized in my post by an engine that would detonate without water injection. Increasing compression is a good way to increase the efficiency of the motor, but runs into detonation issues. So yes, with a suitably high compression motor, you could do this...though simply injecting more fuel would also work (and if you didn't care about the decrease in mileage, would most likely save you weight due to the lack of a water tank, pump, etc)--on a car this additional weight doesn't add up to much, so there, you might want to do it, but on a bike? I'd rather just inject more fuel...or simply run higher octane to take advantage of the increased compression without all the extra hardware. Note that in racing, the only time when water injection is used is for forced induction, and then only when the fuel is limited in octane (i.e. WRC).


Marc
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October 17, 2006, 08:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAST
i have a 2002 zx12r and i am trying to spray water in to the intake. anybody have any idea if that is possible. i made my project on paper but i need an experts idea.the concept is to have the humidity efect continusly after 5000 rpm and not instantly like the nitrous.
Why do you even want water injection...? You might be better off with alcohol/water injection anyway.
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October 29, 2006, 11:49 AM

thanks guys, but if i add turbo on the bike i would have to take it away from the street, same if i add nos, thats why i was in to these concept. at least if i pass a test on the bike and they ask what is in the bottle i would tell them its only water. i have done all the increases available on fuel, elctricity, timing etc. but the engine feels stronger every time you get in a humid area thats why i got in to the idea of adding the water bottle same thing that we do with cars.
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October 30, 2006, 08:29 PM

methanol injectio
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October 30, 2006, 08:29 PM

methanol injection
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October 30, 2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by boston-birdman
Water injection systems have proven their worth in automotive competition (WRC and others), but only for very specific applications--in 99.9% of the cases, those with forced induction. The injection of a finely atomised mist results in additional charge cooling (and thus charge densification) enabling the use of higher boost, greater ignition advance, etc, before detonation occurs. Water injection in a non-forced induction motor (i.e. no super or turbocharger) would have a minimal effect--and then only under very specific ambient conditions (hot and dry intake air), where the cooling/densification properties can occur--similar technique to a "swamp cooler" (evaporative water system used in the american southwest for air conditioning). The increase in power would be minimal--and similar to the difference in power associated with running on a 50degF day vs. a 100F day. While there may be some tertiary effects such as an overall cooler burn and greater volume of post-combustion gas associated with the phase change of water to steam (in effect, adding an additional rankine-cycle like component to the normal otto cycle--somewhat recovering waste exhaust heat), the amount of water injected would be significant as the evaporation of atomized fuel (while gasoline has a lower heat of vaporization than water, it also evaporates much easier) already results in a marked decrease in charge temperature--thus the injected quantity of water would have to be comparable to even net a small increase (since the volumetric increase in combustion gasses at a constant pressure is well in excess of 5:1, for a significant increase in mean pressure during the power stroke--most bike engines run at a mean effective pressure of >200psi), alot of water would have to be included.

example: say you wanted an increase in mean pressure of about 10psi (corresponding to ~5% increase in power, you would need roughly 1-2cc of water injected into the motor per power stroke (for a zx12r), meaning, at 9,000rpm, you would have to inject roughly 100cc of water per minute--a significant amount (especially considering you would have to inject it at high (>100psi) pressure through a good nozzle (see www.aquamist.co.uk for nozzle info) to obtain relatively little power increase

note that this assumes that the water is completely vaporized (a task which would require significant amounts of heat) and requires the combustion process process exactly as before without any associated losses.

problems would be that the decrease in combustion temperature would result in a lower rate of fuel vaporization and burn resulting in incomplete burn and more fuel required for a given amount of actual power, a dilution of the fuel/air mixture resulting in lower burn speed (which would be a significant problem at the high rpm required of a motorcycle engine).

As such, in my opinion, while there may be a few % power gain possible under very specific conditions (both ambient and motor-internal), it is far more likely that 99% of the time such a system would only increase power on a motor that has too aggressive ignition timing and requires the cooling effect to reduce charge temperature during compression to inhibit detonation.

Nitrous works in 3 different ways (one primary, two secondary), the primary reason is the gas (N2O) decomposes into nitrogen and oxygen--increasing the available oxygen to the motor--since the nitrous is injected as a liquid, the volumetric intake capacity of the motor is now able to bring in a greater quantity of oxygen--which then must be burned with a greater quantity of fuel (which is why for optimum results, a wet nitrous system is used where additional fuel is injected, or the motor is tuned to run over-rich (but not too much so) so there is excess fuel available when the nitrous is injected). the secondary methods are charge cooling effects caused by 1. the flash evaporation of the liquid nitrous (which has a boiling point far below freezing at atmospheric pressure, and 2. the endothermic dissociation of the nitrous molecule.

as for reducing the "instant" effects of nitrous, there are many proven ways to reduce this effect including pulse width modulating of nitrous solinoids, various multi-stage injection methods, etc.

note that in general, "humid" air entering a motor will almost uniformly cause it to lose power--the motor is drawing in a certain volume of air, and if some of that air has been replaced with water vapor, there is less oxygen available to combust fuel with.

now, if you are running a turbo, inject away, the hardware and math required to determine the best amounts can be found at the aquamist site (a system I've run on various cars) ( www.aquamist.co.uk )

note, the above numbers are approximations at best, I'm at work and don't ahve the time to do a full on thermodynamic analysis
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October 31, 2006, 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAST
thanks guys, but if i add turbo on the bike i would have to take it away from the street, same if i add nos, thats why i was in to these concept. at least if i pass a test on the bike and they ask what is in the bottle i would tell them its only water. i have done all the increases available on fuel, elctricity, timing etc. but the engine feels stronger every time you get in a humid area thats why i got in to the idea of adding the water bottle same thing that we do with cars.
Why would you have to take a turbo bike off the street?
I have a friend who has a turbo Busa and he rides it on the street all the time.
Actually it is the only place he rides it.


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November 5, 2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2sport
Why would you have to take a turbo bike off the street?
I have a friend who has a turbo Busa and he rides it on the street all the time.
Actually it is the only place he rides it.
Thats how it is here.
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December 13, 2006, 08:21 PM

My 2 cents. Mike James at fastlane has a turbo 12 that he has gotten insane HP out of. Only reason I won the dyno shootout this year is basically cuz he didn't dyno, lol!

Water injection just doesn't seem to make much sense in a cost/benefit analysis.

You know just as well as I you will pay 2x as much as the busa guys to turbo a 12 mainly due to the damn monocoque frame that acts as an airbox too. It needs to be welded shut. Not only that but the stock tranny will realitically only take 300 hp, the pistons will only take 70 hp (say from a nitrous shot).

Not sure what you are intending to use your bike for but seriously, if I told you you could have 215 hp at the WHEEL with a $299 nitrous kit why wouldn't you? A simple 40 shot! My motor is stock and save for colder plugs and a conservative tune thats it. I put a muzzy clutch in because 1st gen 12s have weak clutches compared to the 02 and up models. Also, the 02 and up can provide more fuel from their stock pumps than the 00-01s. I am pretty much maxed out w/respect to keeping it safe. you have another 20 hp or so you "could" go although I'd do your valvetrain because it WILL go eventually if you play 60+ hp on spray. Seat pressure on the 12s is a lowly 30ish lbs, weak! Valve float.

THis water injection seems higher effort and lower reward. You add a total of less than 10 lbs to your bike (wiring, solenoid, full 2.5 lb bottle which is 6.5 lbs, hoses, gauge, switches) for 40 hp gain. Just 10 hp per cylinder really. Its not that hard considering each cylinder is putting out 40hp in stock form!

As for increasing efficiency, that can be a double edged sword. Upping compression requres higher octane to resist detonation. If you are more fuel efficient but the gas you use is more expensive, what have you really gained (in terms of just $$$). If you want to advance the timing, run some 93 all the time and a good map that takes ram air into account then that would be another route.

But I wouldn't rule out nitrous. Wanna run someone? Flip the switch and go (assuming you already opened the bottle) and a 2.5 bottle "fits" underneath the stock tail section of a 12. There is no other better bang for the buck, period.

A.


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