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tonetone
Most users ever online was 4,519, September 2, 2015 at 03:26 AM.
Go Back   DCSportbikes.net > Sportbike Operation > Riding Tips

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  (#1)
Knee Draggin!
 
Modian's Avatar
 
Posts: 576
Join Date: September 30, 2002
Location: Manassas
March 20, 2003, 12:19 PM

This is in response to a question:

Basically, itís just staying on the brakes till late in the corner. Instead of completing braking before you enter the corner as usual, youíre still on them when you begin your steering input and start leaning the bike. Only time I really use it is if I have more entry speed into the corner than the guy in front of me. There is a chance of washing out the front if you go too far into the lean still on the brakes, so get real comfortable with cornering and braking before you do it. Using the front brake in a lean makes the bike want to stand up when you get over far enough, and if you fight that, hello trouble. (See braking in a corner in the 'Answering my own questions' thread) So only do it for the first 20 or so degrees. (thatís probably not the angle Iím thinking. Need a protractor).

Now if you meant ďback it inĒ, thatís using the back brake in a corner to tighten your apex up. Basically allows you to go into a corner with more speed than normal, and cut a sharper turn instead of running wide if you didnít touch the back brake. I donít have personal experience with this and havenít found a need for it. Some racers are the same. Some do it, some donít.

Hereís is a post from the R6 board which explains trail braking. Note that this is pretty much the opposite of my brake in a corner post because they use the same principles.

Quote:
Trail braking means just what its name implies, trailing off the brake. A tire has a limited amount of grip. You can use 100percent for braking OR 100percent for cornering, but not 100percent of both at the same time. However, you could use 50percent for braking AND 50percent for cornering and everything is OK. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the "traction circle concept". But the idea is that as cornering demand increases you must proportionally decrease braking pressure or you will ask too much from the tire (i.e., exceed the traction circle), lose traction and crash. If you just pop off the brake as you are in the process of leaning over, you can upset the chasis and crash, but if you decrease brake pressure proportionally as you lean the bike over the suspension will stay loaded do to the cornering force and everything will remain stable and the bike will be ready for you to apply throttle and fly out the exit. So to recap, I am heading to turn entry at 100% brake, as I start leaning the bike over, I decrease the brake pressure at the same rate of leaning until I am fully leaned over and no longer on the brake, at which time, I start applying the throttle and standing the bike up according to the traction circle of the rear tire. Please note that I do not trail brake on public roads. The amount of available traction is never consistent and I'm not trying desperately to lose another fraction of a second off a lap time
If you need more clarification, let me know.

-Mod
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  (#2)
Railing!
 
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March 20, 2003, 12:48 PM

Look at that handfull of brake... full lean!



[Edited on 20/3/2003 by SVSR6]
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  (#3)
Railing!
 
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March 20, 2003, 12:55 PM

Yes he is.. and if he's not, oh well, it's still a cool pic!
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  (#4)
Signed up for Track Days!
 
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March 20, 2003, 01:04 PM

It's a black brake lever, if you look closely you can see that his fingers are all wrapped around the throttle.


I refuse to tiptoe through life to arrive safely at death.
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  (#5)
GP Racer
 
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March 20, 2003, 01:08 PM

A couple points I thought I would add. One is that some skilled riders teach that the traction circle concept isnt quite valid for a trail braking motorcycle because the compressed forks may push the front tire harder into the tarmac and get somewhat more traction, so you may be able to exceed the in theory "100%". This is assuming that you are on the brakes entering the corner, not grabbing the brakes mid corner of course.

Another is that your bike setup can influence how your bike steers on the brakes so if you start playing around with trail braking and notice your bike doesent want to turn into the corner you probably need to adjust the suspension settings.

I understand that Freddie Spencer teaches trailbraking at his 3-day class as good as anyone. Ive been meaning to set aside money to do it, but I think its close to 3 grand.
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  (#6)
Knee Draggin!
 
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March 20, 2003, 01:09 PM

Quote:
Look at that handfull of brake... full lean!
Uh, I don't think so. He's not using any brake. Have you ever grabbed a handful of brake at full lean? Do you know what the bike does when you do? Do you know what would happen if you tried to keep a bike leaned over like that with a handful of brake? Doesn't look like it.

-Mod
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  (#7)
Railing!
 
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March 20, 2003, 01:12 PM

Ok, ok... I admit it, I just wanted to post the pic :doh:

I'm being a postwhore today!


Yes I have grabbed brake all the way to the Apex of a turn then dove in.. I hate doing it, but sometimes shit happenes.

[Edited on 20/3/2003 by SVSR6]
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  (#8)
Conform & Obey
 
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March 20, 2003, 01:21 PM

T4 at VIR. i had that same problem my first time there. what i ended up doing was ataying to the right side of the track until my turn in point (the cone for the entry point was in the right place on Monday). The correct turn in point was a bit deeper than i thought it would be. I then get it turned as quickly as possible using countersteering. if your turn in is not fast enough, youll run wide on the exit and be in an awkward position for turn 5. it took a little a few laps (like , but i finally was able to consistently hit the proper apex on T4.


- splyn

Conform and Obey

The cornerstone of my psyche is a searing, unfocused rage.
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  (#9)
Knee Draggin!
 
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March 20, 2003, 01:41 PM

Were you on the gas? If so, did you try giving it more? If you're staying steady on the throttle, you're actually slowing down and will run wider. Steadily applying throttle will tighten you up.

Sometimes you'll have the correct line, but if you're not using your throttle properly, you won't stay on that line. Throttle sounds like your problem, not lean.

-Mod

[Edited on 3/20/2003 by Modian]
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  (#10)
Conform & Obey
 
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March 20, 2003, 01:54 PM

i also found that if i dont get the bike leaned over fast enough, ill run wide on that corner.

T7 - i was originally staying to the left and turning in late, but a control rider showed me a line that begins toward the middle of the track approaching T7. there are almost two turn in points. the first is a minor one that will bring you onto the "up hill" transition and the second is shooting for the apex. its a bit hard to describe. after seeing the corner as two turn ins instead of one, my exit was a lot better.


- splyn

Conform and Obey

The cornerstone of my psyche is a searing, unfocused rage.
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  (#11)
Knee Draggin!
 
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March 20, 2003, 01:56 PM

Never done VIR and you guys are really making me want to hit it.

-Mod
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  (#12)
Railing!
 
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March 20, 2003, 02:00 PM

How does VIR compare with Summit?
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  (#13)
Knee Draggin!
 
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March 20, 2003, 02:06 PM

I just re-read your post, Lee. Is T4 a 180 or 90 or what? Is there a picture of it? Maybe then I can offer something.

And how quick are you at switching sides? How do you handle an S-curve? In detail.

-Mod

[Edited on 3/20/2003 by Modian]
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  (#14)
GP Racer
 
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March 20, 2003, 02:09 PM

Mod, I second that! [filthy buggerz!]

Quote:
Look at that handfull of brake... full lean!
damn nubies,............... :o


ďTo announce that there must be no criticism of the president,
or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not
only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the
American public.Ē -Theodore Roosevelt
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  (#15)
Railing!
 
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March 20, 2003, 02:14 PM

Sheeit! :finger2:
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