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‘Ugly Thoughts’ Defense Fails as Officer Is Convicted in Cannibal Plot
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‘Ugly Thoughts’ Defense Fails as Officer Is Convicted in Cannibal Plot - March 13, 2013, 11:31 AM

A New York police officer was convicted on Tuesday in a bizarre plot to kidnap, torture, kill and eat women, ending a trial whose outcome hinged on a delicate distinction between fantasy and reality.

The trial had drawn widespread attention, in part because it involved an officer’s disturbing behavior, but also because it raised a fundamental question: When does a virtual crime, contemplated in Internet chat rooms, become an actual crime?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/ny...case.html?_r=0


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March 13, 2013, 11:40 AM

His contemplation went beyond fantasy and crossed over into the world of criminality even if he did not intend to actually carry out any of his fantasies.



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March 13, 2013, 11:55 AM

I've been following this case loosely and was worried that it was going into the "Minority Report" pre-crime zone. However given the fact that he gained illegal access into a law enforcement database (lol) to do research on victims definitely seems to prove the charge on which he was convicted (kidnapping conspiracy).

What a mindfuck this must be for his wife.


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March 13, 2013, 11:58 AM

Yep. I was also on the fence until finding out some of the concrete surveillance/research steps he took..

We should be very mindful, however. This is a short step away from thought crime.



Fucker was a criminal in my mind as soon as he used a law enforcement database for non-official business. Even without the whole "crazy bastard" part, misusing your access to other people's personal information is, and should be, a crime.

Scumbag.


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March 13, 2013, 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillie View Post
I've been following this case loosely and was worried that it was going into the "Minority Report" pre-crime zone. However given the fact that he gained illegal access into a law enforcement database (lol) to do research on victims definitely seems to prove the charge on which he was convicted (kidnapping conspiracy).

What a mindfuck this must be for his wife.
A mindfuck indeed, but if she ever contemplated leaving him before this event - she won a lottery ticket.
She gets an easily winnable divorce, full custody of any children, and half of everything including his pension.



“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a Prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires”.

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Last edited by Heist; March 13, 2013 at 12:32 PM..
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March 13, 2013, 12:34 PM



Yeah I am old enough to know better. Thing is, I just don't care.
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March 13, 2013, 12:34 PM

aw...that isnt bad....I just ate a woman this weekend.





she walk out of the room un-harmed.


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March 13, 2013, 01:09 PM

First I'm reading about this case so the following remarks are actual questions and not snarky remarks.

Can't he be convicted and sentenced for the mis-used police database and stalking with intent? Isn't it better to convict people of the crimes they do commit?

Obviously people here that have followed the case have been convinced and I'm just wondering what the reasoning is.


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This is what happens when weak minded adults allow children to make decisions. You get stupid shit like this.
unintentional accidental

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March 13, 2013, 01:12 PM

Quote:
one count of kidnapping conspiracy
It's a reasonable question, lam. I suspect that kidnapping conspiracy is the stuff involved with the plotting, planning, etc. For example, they didn't get him for attempted kidnapping, probably because he never made the attempt.


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March 13, 2013, 01:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lam@dcsf View Post
First I'm reading about this case so the following remarks are actual questions and not snarky remarks.

Can't he be convicted and sentenced for the mis-used police database and stalking with intent? Isn't it better to convict people of the crimes they do commit?

Obviously people here that have followed the case have been convinced and I'm just wondering what the reasoning is.
He was convicted of conspiracy to commit kidnapping. I believe the illegal database access surfaced as part of the investigation and he was subsequently charged with it as well. It is also the cornerstone of the prosecution's case as it showed actual target identification and research.

I think you and Von are still free to eat all the women you choose.


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March 13, 2013, 01:14 PM

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Conspiracy law usually does not require proof of specific intent by the defendants to injure any specific person to establish an illegal agreement. Instead, usually the law only requires the conspirators have agreed to engage in a certain illegal act. This is sometimes described as a "general intent" to violate the law.
This is from wikipedia... since he chatted with another person and made plans (the police database and his statements evidence, in the jury's mind, of an actual plan vs fantasy), that's what they got him on


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March 13, 2013, 01:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitz View Post
It's a reasonable question, lam. I suspect that kidnapping conspiracy is the stuff involved with the plotting, planning, etc. For example, they didn't get him for attempted kidnapping, probably because he never made the attempt.
So the available sentencing for the crimes actually committed weren't adequate? If they were concerned about his mental state and the likelihood of his being a threat in future was commitment to mental facility an option?

I'm not trying to be difficult I'm just trying to get an idea of the "tipping point" and how much revulsion influenced the outcome. I should read through the available material but I'm also asking for your judgment on what proved he had passed from role-playing to public threat.

ADDED NOTE: Sorry, was writing when your following post went up. So far I agree with your remark about watching this very carefully. I dare say most of us really don't want to know what goes on in the minds of those around us. No drama just tedious, disgusting and fairly pathetic if you don't share their particular twists. However, this is the US and we are supposed to be working for/defending freedom in this country and I'm not looking forward to the day when political correctness becomes the applied law.


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. . . . so get that helmet cam! . . . . . . Because the D-K Effect is an STD .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider View Post
This is what happens when weak minded adults allow children to make decisions. You get stupid shit like this.
unintentional accidental

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I am socially disabled so some things do need to be explained to me.

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March 13, 2013, 01:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lam@dcsf View Post
So the available sentencing for the crimes actually committed weren't adequate? If they were concerned about his mental state and the likelihood of his being a threat in future was commitment to mental facility an option?

I'm not trying to be difficult I'm just trying to get an idea of the "tipping point" and how much revulsion influenced the outcome. I should read through the available material but I'm also asking for your judgment on what proved he had passed from role-playing to public threat.
Doesn't matter much what I think. The jury made the call.

I'm saying a conspiracy charge is entirely appropriate. His visit to the one woman, coupled with his chats about how he "couldn't wait" to chloroform her, coupled with the research that he did, and the intent displayed in the chats, convinced the jury that his plans were plans, and not fantasy.

In this case, I'd say it was appropriate. I would also caution folks to evaluate these sort of things very carefully, because this is just a whisper away from "thoughtcrime"

It's a sticky situation. Obviously the guy is sick. Does he need to be in a mental institution or a jail? Personally, given the shitty state of mental health care in this country, I'd rather him be in jail. At least there he's locked up. Nowadays, nutjobs get some counseling and some drugs, then go off their meds and, because they are not under any real supervision, go do something crazy.


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March 13, 2013, 01:52 PM

My opinion about "thought crimes", it is never illegal to have an illegal thought - in some cases it may not be even be illegal to articulate that thought (1A Rights), however, it would be illegal to articulate this and put together a reasonably actionable plan, especially when in the course of constructing the plan, the actor engages in criminal activity.

It's enough to meet the measure of deliberate criminal intent, conspiracy, menacing, stalking, malice etc. etc.



“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a Prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires”.

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Last edited by Heist; March 13, 2013 at 02:02 PM..
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March 13, 2013, 02:28 PM

Dude shouldn't have had a jury. He probably would have had a better time convincing the judge of some technicality.


Anywho, this case has me worried about some discussions I've had on libertarian forums. Based on this plenty of users are only a step away from conspiracy to overthrow the government (albeit a big one in illegally using resources to track targets). Oh well. Fitz, you can have my guitars if the drones get me while I'm not at home.


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