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The first batch released. Hydro fuel cell $600 mth lease 3years
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The first batch released. Hydro fuel cell $600 mth lease 3years - June 16, 2008, 06:24 PM

http://finance.comcast.net/www/news..../16/987182.xml


To punish and enslave!
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I'll also thank them for proving that you don't need the force to get a woman to make you a sammich.
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June 16, 2008, 06:29 PM

great...a car powered by 60% coal with half the actual efficiency of a gasoline one, hold on a second while I gape open-mouthed in amazement. If I wanted to pay that much and double my carbon footprint, I'd buy a 2009 CTS-V...hmm...maybe I will


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June 16, 2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman
great...a car powered by 60% coal with half the actual efficiency of a gasoline one, hold on a second while I gape open-mouthed in amazement. If I wanted to pay that much and double my carbon footprint, I'd buy a 2009 CTS-V...hmm...maybe I will
70mpg but can you explain, I know you know what you say but I am missing something.

Now mind you I posted this because I am not a fan. I think the electric car of the 70's that got a range of 300 miles with a battery technology that the oil industry bought to keep it quiet is a better solution.


To punish and enslave!
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religion is just a misspelling of superstition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi
Once again I forgive you for your self-righteousness, bigotry and prejudice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillie View Post
I'll also thank them for proving that you don't need the force to get a woman to make you a sammich.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."
-Benjamin Franklin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOF...embedded#at=36
http://www.bachbio.com/gunsavelives.htm
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Thumbs up June 16, 2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman
great...a car powered by 60% coal with half the actual efficiency of a gasoline one, hold on a second while I gape open-mouthed in amazement. If I wanted to pay that much and double my carbon footprint, I'd buy a 2009 CTS-V...hmm...maybe I will
A comedian with a big brain. Your post are insiteful and funny all at the same time.
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June 16, 2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2sport
70mpg but can you explain, I know you know what you say but I am missing something.

Now mind you I posted this because I am not a fan. I think the electric car of the 70's that got a range of 300 miles with a battery technology that the oil industry bought to keep it quiet is a better solution.
Well, the reason I don't like hydrogen cars right now is the hydrogen has to come from somewhere. The two sources of bulk hydrogen right now are electrolysis of water (using electricity off the grid), and from natural gas (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production) with the later being the primary source these days (note how it also produces CO2)

Both of these processes are not 100% efficient (of course), with electrolysis operating (in large scale) at 50-70% efficient.

So lets say that car converts hydrogen into electricity into motion at ~45% efficiency (50% for the fuel cell, 90+% for the motor).

So now we have converted electrical power into transportable fuel, and into motion at about 31% efficiency.

In the power plant, we convert fossil fuels (70%+ of the US energy supply) into electricity at 35-40% efficiency...so in effect, the overall oil to car motion efficiency is about 12.5%...(I'm being VERY conservative here by not including losses associated with electrical power transmission and the very high energy cost associated with compressing hydrogen gas for storage).

A normal gasoline powered car is about 20-25% efficient, and a diesel is about 30% efficient...so, given that 70% of the power used for your hydrogen car comes from fossil fuels (and most of it coal, where 100% of the energy is from C + o2 = co2 + energy vs. gasoline, where only 50% of the energy is from carbon combustion (the rest is from the 18 hydrogen atoms in an octane molecule combusting))...that means that you use 3 times as much energy to go a given distance...and each unit of energy makes 1.5 times as much co2...that means your hydrogen car has 3-5 times the carbon footprint of an equivalently powered efficient gasoline car...

the only way hydrogen cars make sense is if suddenly we had a way to store it at 10x current storage densities AND we switched to all nuclear power, but at that point, give me just methanol...its denser, and easier and cheaper to make work with our infrastructure.

as for the 1970's battery powered car that got 300 miles on a charge...its a myth (believe me, I work with VERY high tech batteries), and the only way with 1970's battery technology you could do that would be with ultra-high temperature sodium sulphur batteries, tires that are as hard as hockey pucks, a car shaped like a teardrop, and virtually no payload.


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...and because sometimes you want to go fast, but need 4 wheels:
2009 Nissan GT-R
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June 17, 2008, 04:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdman
Well, the reason I don't like hydrogen cars right now is the hydrogen has to come from somewhere. The two sources of bulk hydrogen right now are electrolysis of water (using electricity off the grid), and from natural gas (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production) with the later being the primary source these days (note how it also produces CO2)

Both of these processes are not 100% efficient (of course), with electrolysis operating (in large scale) at 50-70% efficient.

So lets say that car converts hydrogen into electricity into motion at ~45% efficiency (50% for the fuel cell, 90+% for the motor).

So now we have converted electrical power into transportable fuel, and into motion at about 31% efficiency.

In the power plant, we convert fossil fuels (70%+ of the US energy supply) into electricity at 35-40% efficiency...so in effect, the overall oil to car motion efficiency is about 12.5%...(I'm being VERY conservative here by not including losses associated with electrical power transmission and the very high energy cost associated with compressing hydrogen gas for storage).

A normal gasoline powered car is about 20-25% efficient, and a diesel is about 30% efficient...so, given that 70% of the power used for your hydrogen car comes from fossil fuels (and most of it coal, where 100% of the energy is from C + o2 = co2 + energy vs. gasoline, where only 50% of the energy is from carbon combustion (the rest is from the 18 hydrogen atoms in an octane molecule combusting))...that means that you use 3 times as much energy to go a given distance...and each unit of energy makes 1.5 times as much co2...that means your hydrogen car has 3-5 times the carbon footprint of an equivalently powered efficient gasoline car...

the only way hydrogen cars make sense is if suddenly we had a way to store it at 10x current storage densities AND we switched to all nuclear power, but at that point, give me just methanol...its denser, and easier and cheaper to make work with our infrastructure.

as for the 1970's battery powered car that got 300 miles on a charge...its a myth (believe me, I work with VERY high tech batteries), and the only way with 1970's battery technology you could do that would be with ultra-high temperature sodium sulphur batteries, tires that are as hard as hockey pucks, a car shaped like a teardrop, and virtually no payload.
Thanks

I got the battery info from a show called "Who killed the evo", where they interviewed the guy who supposedly invented the battery. Not that I don't believe you just saying where I got it.


To punish and enslave!
2003 GSXR1K
2008 HD Night Train
religion is just a misspelling of superstition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi
Once again I forgive you for your self-righteousness, bigotry and prejudice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillie View Post
I'll also thank them for proving that you don't need the force to get a woman to make you a sammich.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."
-Benjamin Franklin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOF...embedded#at=36
http://www.bachbio.com/gunsavelives.htm

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June 17, 2008, 08:23 AM

only gets 270 miles per tank? $600 a month lease

IMO that is expensive

I pay $4 something for a month for my car
get about 290-335 miles per tank
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June 17, 2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage
only gets 270 miles per tank? $600 a month lease

IMO that is expensive

I pay $4 something for a month for my car
get about 290-335 miles per tank
Yep, and I would like to see what they are charging for hydrogen per gallon!

This is just a test run but I would like to see if anyone is telling anything about the factories like birdman says they will be doing some polluting.

Arnold is pushing for stations all over.

I see a lot of actors pushing for this but my mother-n-law is an environmentalist along with my brother-n-law and neither one likes the idea.
When i say environmentalist I don't mean they just eat bird seed and hug trees.
Mom is a PHD in animal behavior, teaches biology and worked for years at the audubon society teaching teachers how to get kids involved in nature. Her father founded the powdermill nature reserve in PA.
My brother-n-law owns an environmental store which specializes in solar energy.
http://www.ecofly.biz/

He graduated with a computer science degree, minor in business and studied nuclear physics for a bit.


To punish and enslave!
2003 GSXR1K
2008 HD Night Train
religion is just a misspelling of superstition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi
Once again I forgive you for your self-righteousness, bigotry and prejudice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillie View Post
I'll also thank them for proving that you don't need the force to get a woman to make you a sammich.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."
-Benjamin Franklin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOF...embedded#at=36
http://www.bachbio.com/gunsavelives.htm
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June 17, 2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2sport
Yep, and I would like to see what they are charging for hydrogen per gallon!

This is just a test run but I would like to see if anyone is telling anything about the factories like birdman says they will be doing some polluting.

Arnold is pushing for stations all over.

I see a lot of actors pushing for this but my mother-n-law is an environmentalist along with my brother-n-law and neither one likes the idea.
When i say environmentalist I don't mean they just eat bird seed and hug trees.
Mom is a PHD in animal behavior, teaches biology and worked for years at the audubon society teaching teachers how to get kids involved in nature. Her father founded the powdermill nature reserve in PA.
My brother-n-law owns an environmental store which specializes in solar energy.
http://www.ecofly.biz/

He graduated with a computer science degree, minor in business and studied nuclear physics for a bit.
That sounds like my extended family, father-in-law=chemistry major, highschool physics teacher, now volunteers at the hospital; mother-in-law=history major and history teacher in highschool; brother-in-law= physics major and also teaches at Osbourne; MY WIFE PhD in psychology, she is currently a developmental psychologist and is also tested as a genus. The rest of the family is all dentists. believe me I keep my stupid mouth shut when it comes to family gatherings cause I know they already think I am not that bright.

I often question what the hell my wife sees in me.


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June 17, 2008, 10:55 AM

Birdman, what the hell do you do for a living? Either you're a wiki whore or an mad scientist. I think you put more research into your posts than I did in papers through 6 years of school.

+1


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June 17, 2008, 11:05 AM

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Originally Posted by UnivOfPittBull
Birdman, what the hell do you do for a living? Either you're a wiki whore or an mad scientist. I think you put more research into your posts than I did in papers through 6 years of school.

+1
I can't tell you how happy I was when I saw he was my first poster.
If I recall correctly he has something to do with designing nuclear facilities but don't remember exactly but I knew enough not to argue with him!


To punish and enslave!
2003 GSXR1K
2008 HD Night Train
religion is just a misspelling of superstition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi
Once again I forgive you for your self-righteousness, bigotry and prejudice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillie View Post
I'll also thank them for proving that you don't need the force to get a woman to make you a sammich.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."
-Benjamin Franklin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOF...embedded#at=36
http://www.bachbio.com/gunsavelives.htm
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June 17, 2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by R6speed
That sounds like my extended family, father-in-law=chemistry major, highschool physics teacher, now volunteers at the hospital; mother-in-law=history major and history teacher in highschool; brother-in-law= physics major and also teaches at Osbourne; MY WIFE PhD in psychology, she is currently a developmental psychologist and is also tested as a genus. The rest of the family is all dentists. believe me I keep my stupid mouth shut when it comes to family gatherings cause I know they already think I am not that bright.

I often question what the hell my wife sees in me.
My wife is a psychology major turned teacher.

When we go out to eat together I usually am left out too.
My father-n-law taught History at college in Africa and is a PHD in Political Science.
He works for the State Department, a section he helped establish years ago which deals with Africa. He is a great guy.


To punish and enslave!
2003 GSXR1K
2008 HD Night Train
religion is just a misspelling of superstition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi
Once again I forgive you for your self-righteousness, bigotry and prejudice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillie View Post
I'll also thank them for proving that you don't need the force to get a woman to make you a sammich.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."
-Benjamin Franklin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpOF...embedded#at=36
http://www.bachbio.com/gunsavelives.htm
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June 17, 2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnivOfPittBull
Birdman, what the hell do you do for a living? Either you're a wiki whore or an mad scientist. I think you put more research into your posts than I did in papers through 6 years of school.

+1
The later

wiki is just convenient for looking up random stuff to find sources

I do advanced concepts stuff for a gov't agency.


Marc
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June 17, 2008, 04:30 PM

And he likes nuclear reactors.

This is my greatest problem with all the different energy forms. And a reason I am a supporter of most of Marcs solutions to the issue (especially considering he has advanced degrees in the technologies that define those solutions). There is SO MUCH FREAKING energy that is never recaptured. Marc and I got drunk at Jimmy's about a year or two ago (his birthday? Harvey bought like $350 worth of shots) and we actually determined and agreed on some metric of waste (loss) and though I can't recall it, it was mammoth.

It ended with him wanting to build reactors everywhere... but mostly I think he wants to increase the availible weapons grade plutonium or uranium in the US.


That said, the loss in systems that recapture or convert different forms of energy is so immense that we can't even warrant the technologies until energy becomes so expensive that it becomes an unavoidable issue.

I wish we could effectively convert pee into fuel cause I've gone at least a gallon today...


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June 17, 2008, 04:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2sport
Thanks

I got the battery info from a show called "Who killed the evo", where they interviewed the guy who supposedly invented the battery. Not that I don't believe you just saying where I got it.
Was that "Who Killed the Electric Car?" We watched that at work the other day; very insightful film


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