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Good article on Iraq
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  (#1)
Meh
 
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Good article on Iraq - November 8, 2006, 06:42 PM

Written by a registered Democrat no less. Of course when I say Democrat, I mean a Democrat of old (FDR, Truman, Kennedy) not this new breed.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/11/the_only_issue_this_election_d.html
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November 8, 2006, 06:46 PM

So what's "this new breed"?

The article looks like just another Joe Opinion. Bottom line is, there *has* to be some kind of timeline on leaving Iraq, unless you're willing to stay there forever. Civil strife has been known to take DECADES.

I don't think leaving Iraq is any sort of defeat. Its not up to us to make Iraq successful. It's up to the people of Iraq. This is not our war any longer.

Our war was with Saddam over the threat he posed to our security. That threat (however innaccurately it was perceived) is now gone. Staying in the country only continues to give every Tom, Dick & Mohammad opportunities to kill American troops. Pull the troops and hunt terrorist cells and extremist groups I say (whatever country they may be in; a special forces mission).

It is not necessary to occupy territory to hunt terrorists.


"No race has ever been won in the first corner, but plenty have been lost there."

Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; November 8, 2006 at 06:54 PM..
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November 8, 2006, 08:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DvlsAdvc8
So what's "this new breed"?

The article looks like just another Joe Opinion. Bottom line is, there *has* to be some kind of timeline on leaving Iraq, unless you're willing to stay there forever. Civil strife has been known to take DECADES.

I don't think leaving Iraq is any sort of defeat. Its not up to us to make Iraq successful. It's up to the people of Iraq. This is not our war any longer.

Our war was with Saddam over the threat he posed to our security. That threat (however innaccurately it was perceived) is now gone. Staying in the country only continues to give every Tom, Dick & Mohammad opportunities to kill American troops. Pull the troops and hunt terrorist cells and extremist groups I say (whatever country they may be in; a special forces mission).

It is not necessary to occupy territory to hunt terrorists.
New Breed refers to those individuals would not be democrats 30 years ago. This current party is not the party of the likes of those individuals previously mentionned.

Leaving Iraq is certainly an admission of defeat and I am not proposing an indefinite occupation, however, we need to make sure the Iraqis can sustain and protect their new government which is not currently the case.
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November 8, 2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DvlsAdvc8
So what's "this new breed"?

The article looks like just another Joe Opinion. Bottom line is, there *has* to be some kind of timeline on leaving Iraq, unless you're willing to stay there forever. Civil strife has been known to take DECADES.

I don't think leaving Iraq is any sort of defeat. Its not up to us to make Iraq successful. It's up to the people of Iraq. This is not our war any longer.

Our war was with Saddam over the threat he posed to our security. That threat (however innaccurately it was perceived) is now gone. Staying in the country only continues to give every Tom, Dick & Mohammad opportunities to kill American troops. Pull the troops and hunt terrorist cells and extremist groups I say (whatever country they may be in; a special forces mission).

It is not necessary to occupy territory to hunt terrorists.
Did you read the article...obviously not. There is alot more history and fact to that article than "Joe Opinion". You are clarifying the obvious in your opinion. The author actually delves quite deeply into the history and bloodlines of that situation.
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November 8, 2006, 09:29 PM

A decent read. I don't think there is any impending danger of our troops being withdrawn in the near term- too many people realize that would be a huge mistake. I do think that the limited number of politicians calling for a withdrawl is a good thing, not in the idea itself, but in that it puts pressure on the administration to start making changes which have been overdue.

On OIF- I agree that Saddam posed no threat to America itself and the whole thing was sold wrong. ONW/OSW was not working that well (our aircraft were being fired on weekly for years) and America was largely left to take care of it by itself. Where did our coalition go after Desert Storm? Add in the fact that so many UN resolutions were broken with little enforcement- something had to be done.
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November 9, 2006, 05:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHatch
Leaving Iraq is certainly an admission of defeat and I am not proposing an indefinite occupation, however, we need to make sure the Iraqis can sustain and protect their new government which is not currently the case.
Well said - the only means of victory we have is instilling a sense of democracy and morals in these younger generations (10 and below). It will take at least 2 generations of this "new breed" being in power to insure stability and economic success. So yes, it is going to take decades to accomplish this. Question is... do we have that kind of time and money??

As for everyone 10 and older - the only thing they understand is the sword, and well... the sword. They come from over 3000 years of Tribal Wars and he with the most power, wins. They will not change. Our only hope is the children and that we can reach them before their parents do. I'm not saying ALL Middle Easterners are like this... but 80% who still live in these countries are.

Oh - and to stop the flaming and the "you don't know anything..." before you comment insure that you have been in an Islamic country recently (4-5 years for you detail oriented peeps) and dealt with the local populace, elders, Taliban, Al-Queda, local militia's, children, blah blah blah on a regular basis. Otherwise... Sit down, STFU and seek attention elsewhere. I don't give a damn how well you can spout the Washington Times and/or CNN. Also - being born in the country and leaving when you were 5 over 10+ years ago doesn't count.

Ah - and for Devlsadvc8 - Hunting Terrorist Cells IS NOT just a mission for SF and the other Hunter Groups. Many Taliban recruits and contacts are local villagers who are doing it for a paycheck. Any soldier can kick in a door and make an arrest, once the proper intel has been received.
However, remember that Taliban, Al-Queda, or ANY terrorist organization, THRIVES and DEPENDS on unstable economies, strife, lack of food, unemployment, and lack of education to brutalize and control the areas they occupy. If we stabilize the economy, educate the people, and make them self-sustaining, they will do what they do in so many places here - don AK-47's and work alongside the American troops to hunt the Taliban down in local militia groups. It's a slow, painful, and expensive process. Is it worth it?? I think so. The safety of our children and the safety of our neighbor's children depends on it. Every generation is called to account for the freedom of their children in some way shape or form - this is our war, our time, our calling. Is it full of politics and bullshit, red tape and other obstacles??? Of course - but - at least the effort is there.

Sorry - I get a little worked up over stuff like this. Flame away.


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Last edited by DT; November 9, 2006 at 05:17 AM.. Reason: I'm an idiot -why??
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November 9, 2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT
Well said - the only means of victory we have is instilling a sense of democracy and morals in these younger generations (10 and below). It will take at least 2 generations of this "new breed" being in power to insure stability and economic success. So yes, it is going to take decades to accomplish this. Question is... do we have that kind of time and money??

As for everyone 10 and older - the only thing they understand is the sword, and well... the sword. They come from over 3000 years of Tribal Wars and he with the most power, wins. They will not change. Our only hope is the children and that we can reach them before their parents do. I'm not saying ALL Middle Easterners are like this... but 80% who still live in these countries are.

Oh - and to stop the flaming and the "you don't know anything..." before you comment insure that you have been in an Islamic country recently (4-5 years for you detail oriented peeps) and dealt with the local populace, elders, Taliban, Al-Queda, local militia's, children, blah blah blah on a regular basis. Otherwise... Sit down, STFU and seek attention elsewhere. I don't give a damn how well you can spout the Washington Times and/or CNN. Also - being born in the country and leaving when you were 5 over 10+ years ago doesn't count.

Ah - and for Devlsadvc8 - Hunting Terrorist Cells IS NOT just a mission for SF and the other Hunter Groups. Many Taliban recruits and contacts are local villagers who are doing it for a paycheck. Any soldier can kick in a door and make an arrest, once the proper intel has been received.
However, remember that Taliban, Al-Queda, or ANY terrorist organization, THRIVES and DEPENDS on unstable economies, strife, lack of food, unemployment, and lack of education to brutalize and control the areas they occupy. If we stabilize the economy, educate the people, and make them self-sustaining, they will do what they do in so many places here - don AK-47's and work alongside the American troops to hunt the Taliban down in local militia groups. It's a slow, painful, and expensive process. Is it worth it?? I think so. The safety of our children and the safety of our neighbor's children depends on it. Every generation is called to account for the freedom of their children in some way shape or form - this is our war, our time, our calling. Is it full of politics and bullshit, red tape and other obstacles??? Of course - but - at least the effort is there.

Sorry - I get a little worked up over stuff like this. Flame away.
Nice post DT. You probably know alot better than most.
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November 9, 2006, 11:47 AM

I just wish our government would invade a country with real people in crisis. You know, humanitarian stuff. Sudan is the obvious 1st choice.

I feel like we have some sort of Star Trek prime directive...
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November 9, 2006, 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrustinJZX6
I just wish our government would invade a country with real people in crisis. You know, humanitarian stuff. Sudan is the obvious 1st choice.

I feel like we have some sort of Star Trek prime directive...
Nothin worth anything there. We have interest in countries of value.


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November 9, 2006, 12:42 PM

I am impressed, good read, and valid informed replies for the most part. DT, yous a smart/informed person.


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November 9, 2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHatch
Did you read the article...obviously not.
Why do you always assume someone didn't read what you post?

I read everything it had to say. But in the end, it is an opinion to "stay the course" in Iraq. An opinion. I take the same facts and draw an entirely opposite conclusion.

So as I said... just another Joe Opinion.

The article is so effing long winded it makes me look concise (not a small feat!).

There is so much in it to contradict, I would have to write a book to address it.

Just one example would be the comparison that is drawn with West Germany & Japan as successful examples of what we are attempting in Iraq. The cultural differences are so extreme as to make any such comparison ABSURD! With German defeat did Germans continue to resist occupation with terrorist tactics? By far and away, no. The NATION was defeated, and those people held allegiance to the nation... not sub-national faction as exists in Iraq. In Japan, once the emperor surrendered, the subservient Japanese culture allowed for a near instantaneous end to resistance. In both cases, social order was maintained because the artificat of people's allegiance surrendered. In Iraq, the majority had little allegiance to the Saddam government that was defeated. Futher, it was a complete collapse of that regime, there was never an organized surrender. The absence of the regime reveals the underlying allegiance to religious faction or TRIBE that has existed for hundreds of years.

American Military power isn't going to change that. These are not ONE people, as was the case in Germany and Japan. The identity of Iraq is an artificial post-colonial construct... and what we see there post Saddam is just an extension of that age old problem.

This is just one example of how bad that article is. I could obliterate most of what it lays out if was so inclined. It's completely flawed.

That's why I gave such a short answer. It would take me all day to address every bad line of reasoning in there.


"No race has ever been won in the first corner, but plenty have been lost there."

Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; November 9, 2006 at 01:13 PM..
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November 9, 2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gixrben
Nothin worth anything there. We have interest in countries of value.
+1

And I would also question the wisdom of declaring it our responsibility to correct all of the world's evils. That's quite an increase in scope for the US Military mission.


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November 9, 2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DvlsAdvc8
Why do you always assume someone didn't read what you post?

I read everything it had to say. But in the end, it is an opinion to "stay the course" in Iraq. An opinion. I take the same facts and draw an entirely opposite conclusion.

So as I said... just another Joe Opinion.

The article is so effing long winded it makes me look concise (not a small feat!).

There is so much in it to contradict, I would have to write a book to address it.

Just one example would be the comparison that is drawn with West Germany & Japan as successful examples of what we are attempting in Iraq. The cultural differences are so extreme as to make any such comparison ABSURD! With German defeat did Germans continue to resist occupation with terrorist tactics? By far and away, no. The NATION was defeated, and those people held allegiance to the nation... not sub-national faction as exists in Iraq. In Japan, once the emperor surrendered, the subservient Japanese culture allowed for a near instantaneous end to resistance. In both cases, social order was maintained because the artificat of people's allegiance surrendered. In Iraq, the majority had little allegiance to the Saddam government that was defeated. Futher, it was a complete collapse of that regime, there was never an organized surrender. The absence of the regime reveals the underlying allegiance to religious faction or TRIBE that has existed for hundreds of years.

American Military power isn't going to change that. These are not ONE people, as was the case in Germany and Japan. The identity of Iraq is an artificial post-colonial construct... and what we see there post Saddam is just an extension of that age old problem.

This is just one example of how bad that article is. I could obliterate most of what it lays out if was so inclined. It's completely flawed.

That's why I gave such a short answer. It would take me all day to address every bad line of reasoning in there.
I was addressing your flippant response of Joe Opinion. Albeit the situations in Germany, Japan, and Iraq are all quite different and unique, there are comparisons that are worth drawing conclusions. I do not think the author was attempting to shoehorn them all into the same box. I was also commenting on the authors recognition of the differing sects of people and how that interplay all works out. Whether you agree with him or not, he does points out quite a few facts and your interpretation of them is your own. That being said, the piece was not entirely an opinion.
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November 9, 2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT
Ah - and for Devlsadvc8 - Hunting Terrorist Cells IS NOT just a mission for SF and the other Hunter Groups. Many Taliban recruits and contacts are local villagers who are doing it for a paycheck. Any soldier can kick in a door and make an arrest, once the proper intel has been received.
However, remember that Taliban, Al-Queda, or ANY terrorist organization, THRIVES and DEPENDS on unstable economies, strife, lack of food, unemployment, and lack of education to brutalize and control the areas they occupy. If we stabilize the economy, educate the people, and make them self-sustaining, they will do what they do in so many places here - don AK-47's and work alongside the American troops to hunt the Taliban down in local militia groups. It's a slow, painful, and expensive process. Is it worth it?? I think so. The safety of our children and the safety of our neighbor's children depends on it. Every generation is called to account for the freedom of their children in some way shape or form - this is our war, our time, our calling. Is it full of politics and bullshit, red tape and other obstacles??? Of course - but - at least the effort is there.
I understand what your saying with regard to the SF missions I was referring to. To clarify, I mean that these missions should be completely black operations. They don't exist, they aren't happening. True any grunt can make an arrest... but it is the stealth that I'm most interested in. IMO, this is more of a special forces mission than a raid with traditional forces.

Iraq is not going to stabilize until the hundred years old differences among the people are settled by the people themselves. Any umbrella force used to create order is artificial and doesn't address the underlying problems. Saddam maintained order with a fist, just as the US will be forced to (only morally we have fewer means to do so). Once you remove the controlling force, the US government (or as we saw, Saddam), the original hundred years long conflicts will resurface. The Iraqi people have more allegiance to their sect/faction than they do the artificial Iraqi government.


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November 9, 2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHatch
he does points out quite a few facts and your interpretation of them is your own. That being said, the piece was not entirely an opinion.
Right, and what is interpretation? OPINION.

It's an opinion peice like any other is my point. Even when you take the facts he brings up as wholly true, you can still reasonably draw entirely different conclusions that are no better or worse. I'd go a step further than that though, because at least half of the arguement for the opinion he is conveying is very weak: such as the Germany/Japan comparison.

You can tear down more than half the article the same way. I'm sure you don't regret my decision to not itemize each one.


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