DCSportbikes.net  
» Help Support .NET!
DCSportbikes Premier Membership for 25$ per year. Discounts! Click here for full information.

Now available in the .NET Shop:



Get your DCSBN Gear!
» Shoutbox
Sorry, only registered users have the ability to use our real-time shoutbox to chat with other members.

Register now, it's free!
» Online Users: 513
4 members and 509 guests
davidcycle, GRN96WS6, Scot, tonetone
Most users ever online was 4,519, September 2, 2015 at 03:26 AM.
Go Back   DCSportbikes.net > Non-Sportbike Forums > Non-Sportbike Chat

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools
Iceland's Citizens Arrested Their Bank Executives And Politicians
Unread
  (#1)
Your Ad Here
 
Heist's Avatar
 
Posts: 32,590
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: Washington, D.C.
Iceland's Citizens Arrested Their Bank Executives And Politicians - June 20, 2012, 03:30 AM

...then set about a true and proper restoration of their economy and actual relief plan for its citizens that benefited the citizens, not the banks.

Well done, Iceland. Congrats on getting it right post crisis.

And yet no one is reporting on this here. I guess it would be scare the bejesus out of several interested parties and groups if this idea caught fire here in America or even in the Euro zone crisis countries.


Last week 9 people were arrested in London and Reykjavik for their possible responsibility for Iceland’s financial collapse in 2008, a deep crisis which developed into an unprecedented public reaction that is changing the country’s direction.
It has been a revolution without weapons in Iceland, the country that hosts the world’s oldest democracy (since 930), and whose citizens have managed to effect change by going on demonstrations and banging pots and pans. Why have the rest of the Western countries not even heard about it?


Pressure from Icelandic citizens’ has managed not only to bring down a government, but also begin the drafting of a new constitution (in process) and is seeking to put in jail those bankers responsible for the financial crisis in the country. As the saying goes, if you ask for things politely it is much easier to get them.


This quiet revolutionary process has its origins in 2008 when the Icelandic government decided to nationalise the three largest banks, Landsbanki, Kaupthing and Glitnir, whose clients were mainly British, and North and South American.


After the State took over, the official currency (krona) plummeted and the stock market suspended its activity after a 76% collapse. Iceland was becoming bankrupt and to save the situation, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) injected U.S. $ 2,100 million and the Nordic countries helped with another 2,500 million.
Great little victories of ordinary people


While banks and local and foreign authorities were desperately seeking economic solutions, the Icelandic people took to the streets and their persistent daily demonstrations outside parliament in Reykjavik prompted the resignation of the conservative Prime Minister Geir H. Haarde and his entire government.
Citizens demanded, in addition, to convene early elections, and they succeeded. In April a coalition government was elected, formed by the Social Democratic Alliance and the Left Green Movement, headed by a new Prime Minister, Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir.
Throughout 2009 the Icelandic economy continued to be in a precarious situation (at the end of the year the GDP had dropped by 7%) but, despite this, the Parliament proposed to repay the debt to Britain and the Netherlands with a payment of 3,500 million Euros, a sum to be paid every month by Icelandic families for 15 years at 5.5% interest.
The move sparked anger again in the Icelanders, who returned to the streets demanding that, at least, that decision was put to a referendum. Another big small victory for the street protests: in March 2010 that vote was held and an overwhelming 93% of the population refused to repay the debt, at least with those conditions.'


This forced the creditors to rethink the deal and improve it, offering 3% interest and payment over 37 years. Not even that was enough. The current president, on seeing that Parliament approved the agreement by a narrow margin, decided last month not to approve it and to call on the Icelandic people to vote in a referendum so that they would have the last word.


The bankers are fleeing in fear


Returning to the tense situation in 2010, while the Icelanders were refusing to pay a debt incurred by financial sharks without consultation, the coalition government had launched an investigation to determine legal responsibilities for the fatal economic crisis and had already arrested several bankers and top executives closely linked to high risk operations.


Interpol, meanwhile, had issued an international arrest warrant against Sigurdur Einarsson, former president of one of the banks. This situation led scared bankers and executives to leave the country en masse.


In this context of crisis, an assembly was elected to draft a new constitution that would reflect the lessons learned and replace the current one, inspired by the Danish constitution.


To do this, instead of calling experts and politicians, Iceland decided to appeal directly to the people, after all they have sovereign power over the law. More than 500 Icelanders presented themselves as candidates to participate in this exercise in direct democracy and write a new constitution. 25 of them, without party affiliations, including lawyers, students, journalists, farmers and trade union representatives were elected.


Among other developments, this constitution will call for the protection, like no other, of freedom of information and expression in the so-called Icelandic Modern Media Initiative, in a bill that aims to make the country a safe haven for investigative journalism and freedom of information, where sources, journalists and Internet providers that host news reporting are protected.


The people, for once, will decide the future of the country while bankers and politicians witness the transformation of a nation from the sidelines.



“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a Prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires”.

- Nicolo Machiavelli 1469-1527

  Facebook Page MySpace.com Page Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#2)
SUPERBITCHIN'
 
{SALVA}'s Avatar
 
Posts: 6,638
Join Date: September 2, 2008
Location: Ombelico del Mondo
June 20, 2012, 06:44 AM

socialists...


E che cazzo!
  Send a message via AIM to Send a message via AIM to {SALVA}  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#3)
GP Champ
 
nootherids's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,662
Join Date: January 12, 2011
Location: Woodbridge, VA
June 20, 2012, 08:53 AM

Well that's nice, except every protest has left them in a worse place. Don't start the protest unless you have a plan on how to actually fix things.

WE GOT RID OF BANKERS...YAY! ....... Now what?
  Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#4)
EFI - 07/C2
 
bcr229's Avatar
 
Posts: 657
Join Date: August 27, 2011
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
June 20, 2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nootherids View Post
Well that's nice, except every protest has left them in a worse place. Don't start the protest unless you have a plan on how to actually fix things.

WE GOT RID OF BANKERS...YAY! ....... Now what?
No bankers = no lenders = pay as you go. I don't think that's really what they wanted, but it sounds like what they need.


http://www.ExtremeFirepower.com/ - EFI, LLC - Custom Precision Rifles, Gunsmithing, & Machine Gun Rentals

http://www.TankVest.com/ - Attach MOLLE gear to your KLR, KTM, or VStrom gas tank

Each player must accept the cards life deals him or her, but once they are in hand, he alone must decide how to play the cards in order to win the game.
- Voltaire
  Facebook Page Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#5)
Your Ad Here
 
Heist's Avatar
 
Posts: 32,590
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: Washington, D.C.
June 20, 2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nootherids View Post
Well that's nice, except every protest has left them in a worse place. Don't start the protest unless you have a plan on how to actually fix things.

WE GOT RID OF BANKERS...YAY! ....... Now what?
Read the article.



“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a Prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires”.

- Nicolo Machiavelli 1469-1527

  Facebook Page MySpace.com Page Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#6)
GP Champ
 
Posts: 3,459
Join Date: December 29, 2002
Location: NYC UES
June 20, 2012, 10:24 AM

The people who should be prosecuted are your neighbors who lied their ass of on their mortgage applications and the mortgage brokers who helped them lie.

I don't see what the banks did wrong? They are just a pass-through intermediary to Fannie/Freddie. It's business 101 that you won't care about risk, if risk is taken by someone else and backed by Feds. They should've been allowed to go out of business and that's that. But I don't see a crime there.
  Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#7)
Your Ad Here
 
Heist's Avatar
 
Posts: 32,590
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: Washington, D.C.
June 20, 2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witold View Post
The people who should be prosecuted are your neighbors who lied their ass of on their mortgage applications and the mortgage brokers who helped them lie.

I don't see what the banks did wrong? They are just a pass-through intermediary to Fannie/Freddie. It's business 101 that you won't care about risk, if risk is taken by someone else and backed by Feds. They should've been allowed to go out of business and that's that. But I don't see a crime there.
THE BANKS COMMITTED FRAUD.
The synthetic derivatives and structured debt obligations - all fraud.
They found they could make money packaging up junk and risky debt by hiding the underlying assets. They overstimulated the market to get more high risk people in the market with the intent of masking their status.

The Investment Banks knew this was Class C Debt then layered Triple A on top, and told buyers the whole thing was Class A debt. Low default risk.

They also conspired to deceive by pressuring the independent auditors and rating agencies to rate the securities higher than they actually were.

Collusion and fraud; you should get nothing honestly. The Icelandic people should have told the banks to go punch sand. We should have told the investment banks to go punch sand.

In other words, they essentially made them a toxic meatloaf with rancid meat then put a layer of USDA Choice on top and told them it was fine for consumption.

To add insult to injury, they bought insurance on all the people they fed it to - knowing they were going to get sick and then had the indignity to believe that they should be paid out on those claims.


And we bailed out everyone except the people who got sick, and in turn contaminated even the healthy people in the market.


Let me ask you a question; if the banks started this downward spiral and most of the US economy, citizens, small and medium businesses are still suffering - why are they still reaping record profits, profits which started just a year after the crash, and giving each other record bonuses. Does that make ANY sense to you? Does that even seem honest or right?



“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a Prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires”.

- Nicolo Machiavelli 1469-1527

  Facebook Page MySpace.com Page Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#8)
Groping is a skill...
 
turkishexpress's Avatar
 
Posts: 14,997
Join Date: May 3, 2008
Location: Chicagoland
June 20, 2012, 11:12 AM

Revolution is near!


2015 KTM Super Duke 1290 R
2013 Victory Vision Tour
K7 Gixxer 600 - Track Only
RnR Cycles Touched & Tuned


I grope suckaz!!! -
  Facebook Page Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#9)
SUPERBITCHIN'
 
{SALVA}'s Avatar
 
Posts: 6,638
Join Date: September 2, 2008
Location: Ombelico del Mondo
June 20, 2012, 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witold View Post
The people who should be prosecuted are your neighbors who lied their ass of on their mortgage applications and the mortgage brokers who helped them lie.

I don't see what the banks did wrong? They are just a pass-through intermediary to Fannie/Freddie. It's business 101 that you won't care about risk, if risk is taken by someone else and backed by Feds. They should've been allowed to go out of business and that's that. But I don't see a crime there.
man...Iceland sound just like the USA...


E che cazzo!
  Send a message via AIM to Send a message via AIM to {SALVA}  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#10)
GP Champ
 
Posts: 3,459
Join Date: December 29, 2002
Location: NYC UES
June 20, 2012, 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heist View Post
THE BANKS COMMITTED FRAUD.
You are basically describing finance 101. There's nothing fraudulent about any of the things you described. It's how financial products work, and always have. The banks were following all the rules that are forced on them by the regulatory agencies. You make it sound as if banks don't have legal departments to determine what they can and can't do legally.

Bundling financial products together is nothing special and we do it ourselves on individual basis as well. Our portfolio bundle of different stocks and asset classes will have different risk characteristics than individual pieces and that should be obvious.

As for derivatives, they are basically unique individual contracts between two parties. If the counterparty is too stupid to do their own due diligence that's their own fault and they shouldn't be blaming the regulators for their own failings. If they don't know what they are doing when they are getting involved in complex financial contracts, they should probably stay away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heist View Post
Let me ask you a question; if the banks started this downward spiral and most of the US economy, citizens, small and medium businesses are still suffering - why are they still reaping record profits, profits which started just a year after the crash, and giving each other record bonuses. Does that make ANY sense to you? Does that even seem honest or right?
Let me ask you a question: do two wrongs make a right?

FDIC has a chance to take over every failing bank - and you can argue that they should have. If you want to be outraged, be outraged at FDIC/Fed, Obama administration, and the Congress, for deciding to not pursue this path and instead choosing to keep these banks private.

My point is; there is a world of difference between not liking how someone operates and thinking that they are engaging in fraud.

How many people have lied their ass off on mortgage applications? Why should they get a free pass? Why are they not being prosecuted for cut and dry violations? Even if you think banks were engaging in illegal activities - which I would dispute as non-representative of the industry - two wrongs do not make a right.

During the boom years, I was approached by these mortgage salesmen brokers and they told me about these self-declared, non-verified loans. Guess what? I decided not to blatantly lie my ass off. But the liars are still living in their underwater properties - sometimes waiting for evictions, sometimes waiting for loan reductions/restructuring, and sometimes having already flipped it before the boom went bust.

THEY are the blatant criminals.

Last edited by Witold; June 20, 2012 at 11:40 AM..
  Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#11)
no one's blowing up moons
 
lam@dcsf's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,043
Join Date: December 17, 2011
Location: killing cages bare-handed since '13
June 20, 2012, 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heist View Post
In other words, they essentially made them a toxic meatloaf with rancid meat then put a layer of USDA Choice on top and told them it was fine for consumption.

To add insult to injury, they bought insurance on all the people they fed it to - knowing they were going to get sick and then had the indignity to believe that they should be paid out on those claims.


And we bailed out everyone except the people who got sick, and in turn contaminated even the healthy people in the market.
Just because it's called Banks or Insurance or Politics doesn't mean it's not Organized Crime.


Physics always wins

. . . . so get that helmet cam! . . . . . . Because the D-K Effect is an STD .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider View Post
This is what happens when weak minded adults allow children to make decisions. You get stupid shit like this.
unintentional accidental

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I am socially disabled so some things do need to be explained to me.

2013 Suzuki TU250XL3
2010 Triumph Bonneville - I love that fucking bike . . . . Om nom nom nom . . .-Fitz
2009 Suzuki TU250XK9 - KBC Sep 2013
2001 Honda Rebel CMX - KBC Mar 2010

http://flexyourrights.org/
  Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#12)
Your Ad Here
 
Heist's Avatar
 
Posts: 32,590
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: Washington, D.C.
June 20, 2012, 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Witold View Post
You are basically describing finance 101. There's nothing fraudulent about any of the things you described. It's how financial products work, and always have. The banks were following all the rules that are forced on them by the regulatory agencies. You make it sound as if banks don't have legal departments to determine what they can and can't do legally.

Bundling financial products together is nothing special and we do it ourselves on individual basis as well. Our portfolio bundle of different stocks and asset classes will have different risk characteristics than individual pieces and that should be obvious.
Witold,
I appreciate the importance of the banking system. I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm not saying it cannot be improved.
The banking system has provided this country with exceptional advantages and benefits over those of other nations and regions. We are as prosperous as we are, in part, due to it. Not in spite of it.

However, that praise comes with equal chiding when they engage in morally devoid, economical caustic, unnecessarily harmful, and illegal behavior.

I do not have a problem with structured products or bundling financial products.
So long as the risk is accurately and honestly represented and the underlying assets are priced accordingly. Rating agencies colluded with the banks to not only price up securities but were also acutely aware of the junk status, yet rated it as non-junk / investment grade at the demand of the banks.

Compliance departments followed the rules to the extent that they looked for every loophole to violate the spirit and intent of the regulations. There's a reason why many of craziest and most dangerous products were managed, sold, and traded overseas in London to US clients.

Quote:
"As for derivatives, they are basically unique individual contracts between two parties. if counterparty is too stupid to do their own due diligence that's their own fault and they shouldn't be blaming the regulators for their own failings. If they don't know what they are doing when they are getting involved in complex financial contracts, they should probably stay away. "
No, not these kind of derivatives. These Synthetics, while they function like normal derivatives, they're not based on a physical asset. It's a trade contract written on a trade or purchase that another party made. The lynchpin is often these trades were made with counterparties who held misrepresentations made by the the originator. The originator was often the party on the other side of the side of the trade who often held a distinct informational advantage since they created the asset (in another department) which they were essentially betting against.

At a minimum you could have put this in the framework of insider trading at worse, outright fraud at worst. Either way, you or I could NEVER engage in this activity and then expect there to be no legal repercussions.



Quote:
My point is; there is a world of difference between not liking how someone operates and thinking that they are engaging in fraud.

How many people have lied their ass off on mortgage applications? Why should they get a free pass? Why are they not being prosecuted for cut and dry violations? Even if you think banks were engaging in illegal activities - which I would dispute as non-representative of the industry - two wrongs do not make a right.

During the boom years, I was approached by these mortgage salesmen brokers and they told me about these self-declared, non-verified loans. Guess what? I decided not to blatantly lie my ass off. But the liars are still living in their underwater properties - sometimes waiting for evictions, sometimes waiting for loan reductions/restructuring, and sometimes having already flipped it before the boom went bust.

THEY are the blatant criminals.

I am not saying this did not happen. However, cause and effect is at play.
If the Banking industry did not cook up this scheme and set the marketplace environment, would this have happened?

It's like saying:"I gave everyone free shots of liquor and then tossed them the keys to a new car - then I bought insurance on all of them." A year later you turn and say:
"Wow, how did all these accidents happen? They're all so irresponsible!"

You yourself even said you were approached by the predator salesmen, but you seem to have a fair degree of financial and system acumen. Dangle that same carrot in front of a someone who has less education or is not as astute, someone who's been working 20 years and could never get into a home, is tired of renting, and now appears they can finally have that slice of the American dream.

Yes, let's not be coy, they knew what they were doing and turned a blind eye to it simply because they could package up more RMBSs and CDOs (Big fees), sell them to REITs (more fees + commissions), and they didn't have to hold the risk because they would sell it off within 90 days and then buy a secondary insurance contract (CDS) on assets they don't even hold anymore!



“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a Prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires”.

- Nicolo Machiavelli 1469-1527

  Facebook Page MySpace.com Page Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Unread
  (#13)
GP Champ
 
Posts: 3,459
Join Date: December 29, 2002
Location: NYC UES
June 20, 2012, 10:27 PM

In spirit, I think we agree. I just don't feel comfortable crossing the line and saying their activities were in any way illegal and fraudulent. I'm sure there were a handful of instances where they did cross that line, but that is just variance. Most of them simply followed the rules we gave them to follow - rules that encouraged leverage and risk...

...and continue to encourage leverage and risk... So far, no substantial changes have been made in the rules they operate under. Practically none.

Think back 10 years and what did the politicians talk about and take pride in? I distinctly remember Clinton being very proud of himself that under his leadership, he has managed to increase house ownership % to the highest record in US history. Those were the rules we made for ourselves so the banks obliged.

The ratings agencies suck and always sucked. There are many instances of cases where a country's debt rating was top notch right till they imploded into junk territory. Same with ratings for companies. These ratings agencies can not tell the future and there is only so much that can be accounted for in their ratings process. The housing crash was something that we have never seen in the history of the country - that is certainly something that most people didn't see coming - including the ratings agencies.

What you seem to imply is that all these big players were cheating... but somehow didn't know that those same big players were being cheated. But most counterparties getting involved in these contracts usually know very well that a certain product is put together in a certain way - in many cases because they are offering very similar products themselves.

Derivatives should not be looked at the same way that stocks are. I'm not sure that makes any sense. They are distinct contracts with unique terms both parties negotiate. They should follow UCC and similar. When you sell your car and write up a contract, I wouldn't expect 'insider' rules and financial markets rules to apply to such contracts, and that's essentially what derivatives are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heist View Post
You yourself even said you were approached by the predator salesmen, but you seem to have a fair degree of financial and system acumen. Dangle that same carrot in front of a someone who has less education or is not as astute, someone who's been working 20 years and could never get into a home, is tired of renting, and now appears they can finally have that slice of the American dream.
It's not any financial acumen that saved me. It was common sense. Why in the world would I lie on a legal document and sign on the dotted line. That is a recipe for legal problems - something that it seems like every fraudulent mortgage applicant got a pass on.

And THAT makes ME angry. Here I am, still renting, while these fraudsters got homes, sold homes, drove up prices, etc.

If we want to punish/regulate/nationalize banks, that's fine and I'm not saying that the system is fine and nothing should be done. So far, pretty much nothing has been done, but there needs to be changes.

But the other side of the equation is the individuals that were falsifying documents. They should be punished too. What kind of message does the current situation send? Seems to me like I was the stupid one for not taking advantage of this risk-free free money.

Last edited by Witold; June 20, 2012 at 10:31 PM..
  Send a message via AIM to  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner. The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2002-2010 by DCSportbikes.net. DCSportbikes.net is owned by End of Time Studios, LLC.