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Irony at it's finest
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B
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Irony at it's finest - October 9, 2008, 10:10 AM

Holy day for the Jewish faith, Yom Kippur. The day of atonement, of quiet contemplation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7660628.stm

Instead of atoneing for sins, they get pissed at a dude driving through the city and attack him. And then the arabs riot.

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. The act of practicing rote religion without an understanding for it's meaning and then imposing it on to others is so incredibly foolish.


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Kat
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October 9, 2008, 10:37 AM

I agree completely.


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October 9, 2008, 10:47 AM

Maybe the Acre U. basketball team lost. Or maybe they won. lol


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October 9, 2008, 10:50 AM

I've always wondered how much peace would exist in the world without religion. Considering that the bulk of wars fought through out history have been based in religious differences it would be interesting to see what would happen without it.

This is exacerbated by blind faith and rote devotion for inanimate objects. Look at Israel for example. Jerusalem is disputed because it's the holy land. But what if it didn't have any religious foundations...would people still have to die? Then those in opposition could actually make compromises and split the land or move somewhere else. This can't happen if it's the "holy land" and people are willing to die for it.

This is what I'm going to do: I'm going to make my own religion and claim a parcel of YOUR land and call it holy. Then I'm going to start killing anyone who attempts to take my holy land from me. (sounds pretty stupid doesn't it)


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October 9, 2008, 11:02 AM

Religion is a form of idealism. It will always exist because ideals will always exist.

Idealism is great, it's the basis for the wrongness of murder or stealing, and encourges selflessness and heroism. But the trappings that go with idealism (many times manifested in religion) tend to be ideals taken to extremes or taken out of the context of the basic ideal that spawned them, as people begin to worship the action instead of ideal.

i.e. - to stop and think and meditate are good things, but to do it at a set time of day or year, and become angry when someone else doesn't respect that set time of day or year is ludicrous.

The ideal of right or wrong don't matter any more, only the religious manifestation of that ideal. You give up the forest for a tree.


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Last edited by B; October 9, 2008 at 11:04 AM..
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Do what?
 
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October 9, 2008, 11:16 AM

wow... this is one of the many reasons I'm not religous at all... stupid people..


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October 9, 2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gixrB
Idealism is great, it's the basis for the wrongness of murder or stealing, and encourges selflessness and heroism. But the trappings that go with idealism (many times manifested in religion) tend to be ideals taken to extremes or taken out of the context of the basic ideal that spawned them, as people begin to worship the action instead of ideal.
I totally agree. That's why a necessary ingredience in idealism/religion/philosopy/politics/life is balance. It's time to reject extremism on either side.


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October 9, 2008, 11:26 AM

On a side note, Jerusalem is more of a tribal/ethnic issue than a religious one. Yes, both sides ascribe religious significance to the city, but more importantly, each asserts an ancestral claim to the land. From there, it's just been a cycle of killing that has lead to more killing and more hard-line leaders unwilling to compromise.

Yes, it's a crappy attempt at trying to summarize the conflict, but it's similar to the forest for the trees concept of this thread: people forget the reason/ideal for fighting and it becomes a self-sustaining war of incense and retaliation.
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October 9, 2008, 11:56 AM

That's a common theme with sectarian fighting throughout the middle east.

People don't redefine the fight as they enter into it, they merely fight on the precedent familial/sectarian vendetta.

Vendetta by it's own definition has no resolution but the anihilation of the opposition.


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October 9, 2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gixrB
Religion is a form of idealism. It will always exist because ideals will always exist.

Idealism is great, it's the basis for the wrongness of murder or stealing, and encourges selflessness and heroism. But the trappings that go with idealism (many times manifested in religion) tend to be ideals taken to extremes or taken out of the context of the basic ideal that spawned them, as people begin to worship the action instead of ideal.

i.e. - to stop and think and meditate are good things, but to do it at a set time of day or year, and become angry when someone else doesn't respect that set time of day or year is ludicrous.

The ideal of right or wrong don't matter any more, only the religious manifestation of that ideal. You give up the forest for a tree.
I hear what you're trying to say but, contrary to popular belief, religion did not beget morality. It is instinctual for humans to not harm each other based upon reciprocity. Check out the categorical imperative by Kant. It will really open your eyes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantianism

Edit: Also, check out the God Delusion by Dawkins. I am not a atheist but I do believe that to fully understand your own religion you must learn about others.

Through all of my readings it has dawned on me that all religions are basically the same. Why is this? Because we all basically adhere to Kantianism or Rawlsism


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Last edited by nrcooled; October 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM..
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October 9, 2008, 12:23 PM



Re-read what I posted, carefully. Religion is a product of morality, morality is a product of idealism.

In logical terms religion is a subset of idealism... therefore, since a subset of something cannot define the set it is part of, religion could not "beget" morality.

I'm not really worried who agrees with me... just make sure you read before you disagree. I hate having to explain things.


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What failure looks like
 
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October 9, 2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gixrB


Re-read what I posted, carefully. Religion is a product of morality, morality is a product of idealism.

In logical terms religion is a subset of idealism... therefore, since a subset of something cannot define the set it is part of, religion could not "beget" morality.

I'm not really worried who agrees with me... just make sure you read before you disagree. I hate having to explain things.
Sorry, I read your post quickly and then made big assumptions...my bad!

I do hear what you are saying but I stand fast by my belief that religion is basically useless in a society that has science, medicine, structure, etc. What religion does do is make people complacent.

When someone shakes the "tree of religion" with science/government/fact/rationale then comes the problems


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October 9, 2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrcooled
...Through all of my readings it has dawned on me that all religions are basically the same. Why is this? Because we all basically adhere to Kantianism or Rawlsism
Oh sh*t, I can't resist...
We believe that all religions are basically the same--
at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of
creation, sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

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B
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October 9, 2008, 01:35 PM

Hey man, I say stand fast. I guess I'm missing why you are contending with me on this. I defended idealism... not religion.

On a side note any method of belief is foolish without reason, either physical or metaphysical. Men used to drain blood from a sick person, killed or excluded men who introduced germ theory, gravity, the notion that the world was round... and that was all science.

Religion is a way to rationalize the metaphysical, Science the physical... man has done a fair share of bastardizing the truth in either case. Everything coming from nothing is just as obscure a reasoning for ultimate beginnings as some kind of omnipotent force... I actually think the latter better explains the existence of intelligence and sentience (parts of the whole exhibit aspects of the whole and cannot exhibit aspects not contained in the whole, logic, thing).

Often times religion delves into the metaphysical while forgetting the physical, and science deals with the physical while ignoring the metaphysical... both aspects of that seem irrational to me. I think it is a fault of man to grasp the convenient and ignore the whole.


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October 9, 2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrcooled
Edit: Also, check out the God Delusion by Dawkins.
The idea that belief in God is a delusion is a meme.

I love Dawkins because he's so entertaining with his myraid contradictions. In Selfish Gene he waxes eloquently on and on about memes and how there is no objective moral law. He claimed we could make our own morality. Then what does he do in the postscript? He goes on a tyrade about how his book wasn't finished on schedule because of a hacker who wrote some virus that crashed his computer (in of itself rather hilarious). He makes a multitude of moral pronouncements condemning hackers and how "evil" they are. As I read I was like, "Hey Ricky, do you believe the hackers are evil when you just got through arguing that there is no such thing as evil?" LOL.

Read Dawkins with a critical eye and you'll see loads of contradictions and other logical fallacies. The reason is simple. What he argues is just simply not true.


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