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  (#12226)
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October 10, 2017, 02:50 PM

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If bans are based purely on threat to life, limb, or health, cars and cheeseburgers should have been gone long ago. Balloons, pools, stairs, hammers, etc are all problems as well.

Is it on a per item, per round, or rather an empirical dataset that we should judge an items threat level? If based on empirical data, we would indicate that something like a 75mm HEAT round should be legal - no uses in stateside crime that I am aware of.

So, you are saying bans should be based on some postulated threat, and it's clear that SMEs haven't done the proper analysis to recommend where that line should be drawn based on bow Congress has been redrawing that line over the years and using it as a political carrot.
As a group of rational and reasonable adults, I think we can set some brackets around what would be sensible for civilian use with or without empirical data or SME's in the dialogue. They're certainly welcomed - but not needed.

I'm sure there are no recorded crimes committed with 75mm HEAT rounds because no one can readily procure the rounds and launcher, or a MANPAD, or a Stinger. That's not to say with a little effort they couldn't acquire it on the black market.

But for one private citizen, uncontrolled, with no chain of command, or need of fire authorization, unlicensed and unvetted, to wield a device capable of such devastating power, I think it is fair for society collectively to say, "No, you may not own this."

230 years ago - when it almost every man for himself. No real police. A weak constable. A loose militia. No national guard a military that has no where near the force, mobility or communication it does today, sure, have one. You may need it.



“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a Prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires”.

- Nicolo Machiavelli 1469-1527

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  (#12227)
TNT
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October 10, 2017, 07:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Heist View Post
As a group of rational and reasonable adults...
I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but the "common sense" appeal is almost universally a backhanded insult.

Quote:
230 years ago - when it almost every man for himself. No real police. A weak constable. A loose militia. No national guard a military that has no where near the force, mobility or communication it does today, sure, have one. You may need it.
The force, mobility, and communication of government agencies* could be exactly the reason we need it today.

I'm hoping the military, rather than being the reason for needing the 2nd Amendment, actually remains the last bastion of assurance that the Constitution and its Republic will remain. Once the Legion crosses the Rubicon, it's all over.


*The fact that the Department of Education has an enforcement branch requiring weapons worries me.

Last edited by TNT; October 10, 2017 at 07:16 PM..
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  (#12228)
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October 11, 2017, 07:23 AM

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*The fact that the Department of Education has an enforcement branch requiring weapons worries me.

The primary point of citizen having weapons is to combat an out of control govt. 2A isn't based on needs of hunters.

If police have these weapons, so should we. Otherwise we are further set aside as a second class.

I think we've seen enough footage of police overstepping their boundaries. These weapons are our own checks and balances. It's all we have.

Last edited by CCS762ZX6; October 11, 2017 at 07:26 AM..
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  (#12229)
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October 11, 2017, 07:51 AM

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Originally Posted by TNT View Post
I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but the "common sense" appeal is almost universally a backhanded insult.



The force, mobility, and communication of government agencies* could be exactly the reason we need it today.

I'm hoping the military, rather than being the reason for needing the 2nd Amendment, actually remains the last bastion of assurance that the Constitution and its Republic will remain. Once the Legion crosses the Rubicon, it's all over.


*The fact that the Department of Education has an enforcement branch requiring weapons worries me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS762ZX6 View Post
The primary point of citizen having weapons is to combat an out of control govt. 2A isn't based on needs of hunters.

If police (and Military) have these weapons, so should we. Otherwise we are further set aside as a second class.

I think we've seen enough footage of police overstepping their boundaries. These weapons are our own checks and balances. It's all we have.
Both perfectly summed up replies.




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  (#12230)
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October 11, 2017, 10:26 AM

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I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but the "common sense" appeal is almost universally a backhanded insult.
Gather 100 mentally hygienic individuals and ask them a simple question. The plurality opinion is generally your common sense answer.


Quote:
The force, mobility, and communication of government agencies* could be exactly the reason we need it today.
Well, if you want to view this through the prism of an arms race with our own GA's in the event of a potential tyrannical turn, then we've already long lost that battle.


Quote:
I'm hoping the military, rather than being the reason for needing the 2nd Amendment, actually remains the last bastion of assurance that the Constitution and its Republic will remain. Once the Legion crosses the Rubicon, it's all over.
As do I. One of the things I will say is that we have enough right headed people in the military such that I feel this will never happen - not in my lifetime at least. Our military isn't perfect, but don't think we'll ever see a Turkish Style military coupe attempt.

Quote:
*The fact that the Department of Education has an enforcement branch requiring weapons worries me.
The fact that the DOE has not had armed secured at schools worries me even more. As we have learned, schools are the softest of soft targets for everything from your garden variety pervert & child toucher all the way up to a mentally unhygienic sniper & mass shooter.



“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a Prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires”.

- Nicolo Machiavelli 1469-1527


Last edited by Heist; October 11, 2017 at 11:21 AM..
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  (#12231)
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October 11, 2017, 10:51 AM

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Gather 100 mentally hygienic individuals and ask them a simple question. The plurality opinion is generally your common sense answer.
I'll spot you this, despite the question of sample size and definition of mental hygiene. But if the only barometer for common sense is that it is common, then I fail to see how it is ever valid as justification in and of itself, because there is no assurance of sense in this construct.

Quote:
Well, if you want to view this through the prism of an arms race with our own GE's in the event of potential tyrannical turn, then we've already long lost that battle.
Maybe, but insurgencies throughout history have indicated otherwise, especially our own.

Quote:
As do I. One of the things I will say is that we have enough right headed people in the military such that I feel this will never happen - not in my lifetime at least. Our military isn't perfect, but don't think we'll ever see a Turkish Style military coupe attempt.
An Army private has about as much knowledge and understanding of the constitution as the general public (next to none), and the officer corps isn't much better. I worry about the "just following orders" mentality.

Quote:
The fact that the DOE has not had armed secured at schools worries me even more. As we have learned, schools are the softest of soft targets for everything from your garden variety pervert & child toucher all the way up to a mentally unhygienic sniper & mass shooter.
Should be done at the state level. Then I always have The recourse of relocating to a state I find more pallatable.
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  (#12232)
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October 12, 2017, 11:47 PM

Looks like bump stock ban already in the works. We had better ban belt loops next.
https://youtu.be/ykfPIJjraPQ

https://youtu.be/L2YLgLj8KVY
Nah, the hell with it, just ban fingers. Those are definitely "designed to increase the rate of semiautomatic fire."

Rubber bands should also be banned.


But at the end of the day, I know it's not long until the powers that be ban all semi automatic weapons.
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  (#12233)
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October 13, 2017, 06:38 AM

That Asian guy has a serious assault style finger.
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  (#12234)
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October 13, 2017, 11:53 AM

my bump stock order has been cancelled... me thinks something has happened at a higher level

the alternative?

get an AK with doubletrigger mod. its advertised for century arms AKs but should work on most AKM. get painball gun trigger for AK! hooweee!
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  (#12235)
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October 13, 2017, 12:34 PM

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Originally Posted by CCS762ZX6 View Post
my bump stock order has been cancelled... me thinks something has happened at a higher level

the alternative?

get an AK with doubletrigger mod. its advertised for century arms AKs but should work on most AKM. get painball gun trigger for AK! hooweee!

Retailers are hedging risk sensing a potential ban, which if not grandfathered, would mean they would need to coordinate and help manage recall since it would be a NFA or banned item. So why take the risk.

Also, lawsuit risk. The victims attorneys are throwing anyone's name in suit and trying to squeeze a penny out of them if they produced, distributed, sold, handled, or offered Bump Stocks.



“Any man who tries to be good all the time is bound to come to ruin among the great number who are not good. Hence a Prince who wants to keep his authority must learn how not to be good, and use that knowledge, or refrain from using it, as necessity requires”.

- Nicolo Machiavelli 1469-1527

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  (#12236)
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October 14, 2017, 11:03 AM

When did you place your order and which model were you trying to order?

If you have an order, you might be able to get it filled in the next couple of weeks or so.

FYI...they are fun range items is all. Other than that, they are worthless.
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  (#12237)
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October 15, 2017, 12:50 AM

bump stocks are fun if you have a lot of ammo to burn and like clearing jams and private property to shoot them. I do not know of a range (even the NRA's) that allows them...maybe some gun clubs. NRA allows full auto and they did not allow a bump stock after they saw it jam 3 times in one mag.
Vegas Gunman's Use of Bump Stock Reduced Casualties
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October 15, 2017, 01:00 AM

Do not get worked up about them...you are not missing anything. I get why Vegas police are convinced shooter did not work alone b/c at any range shooting full auto people will notice. It is a small club.

They are finicky things that take practice and knowledge of the platform characteristics to use without jamming every 5 rounds. Probably why vegas shoot had so many platforms; and back to his gambling "playing the odds" to get 10-30 rounds out pre-jam.

For sport shooting tri-burst is what would be ideal. Full auto just fucks up accuracy and any platform not engineered for that heat. Sounds cool, though.
Probably good for real combat in some situations but not having it does not hurt my 2A.
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  (#12239)
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October 15, 2017, 08:38 AM

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Do not get worked up about them...you are not missing anything. I get why Vegas police are convinced shooter did not work alone b/c at any range shooting full auto people will notice. It is a small club.

They are finicky things that take practice and knowledge of the platform characteristics to use without jamming every 5 rounds. Probably why vegas shoot had so many platforms; and back to his gambling "playing the odds" to get 10-30 rounds out pre-jam.

For sport shooting tri-burst is what would be ideal. Full auto just fucks up accuracy and any platform not engineered for that heat. Sounds cool, though.
Probably good for real combat in some situations but not having it does not hurt my 2A.
Especially with those turd SureFire mags.
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  (#12240)
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October 15, 2017, 10:35 AM

I placed my order a few days after the event. A couple days later I got aback order notice. Then a couple more days later they said manufacturer has stopped shipping them.

I was just looking for fun. I've never wanted one of these things because I find full auto to be a waste and probly bad for the gun / barrel. I have 200 acres not far from here and figured itd be fun for shooting while driving around the farm.

I mainly wanted to use it for a day then sell it for a lot more on VAGT or gunbroker to pay for all the ammo I would go through.

Shaint no big deal. I'll play around with this double trigger mod.
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