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Finishing Q&A: Powder Coating, Ceramic Coating, Wet Paint, Anodizing and more...
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Finishing Q&A: Powder Coating, Ceramic Coating, Wet Paint, Anodizing and more... - June 16, 2011, 01:01 PM

Hi all,

This is Len from Figure Finishing. Everyone who rides at some point needs to fix up damaged parts or maybe just wants a cosmetic change. And there are lots of ways to do it. So I wanted to start a finishing-specific thread to field questions that come up. We're a custom finisher who specializes in motorsport applications, so I'm familiar with a lot of finishing processes, including ones that we don't offer, so pretty much anything is fair game. If I don't know the answer I should be able to find out or at least point you in the right direction. DIY questions are also welcome. I love finishing so I love talking about it. Any of you guys doing some powder coating of your own are welcome to ask about techniques or share, too!

Might want to check out our Q&A page on our website for questions relevant to our services, too.

Please, no business questions, let's stick to the technical!

Cheers and happy riding!
-Len


Len, Master Coater at Figure Finishing
DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

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June 16, 2011, 02:35 PM

I just posted this in the other thread. But since you have this thread I will post it here also.


I have 4, 15X7 aluminum American racing wheels for my Jeep. They are clear coated also. How much would it cost to have the Powder Coated flat black and what would the turn around time be?





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June 16, 2011, 06:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nubbs View Post
I just posted this in the other thread. But since you have this thread I will post it here also.


I have 4, 15X7 aluminum American racing wheels for my Jeep. They are clear coated also. How much would it cost to have the Powder Coated flat black and what would the turn around time be?
Sent cha email!


Len, Master Coater at Figure Finishing
DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

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Q: Does powder need to be cleared?
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Q: Does powder need to be cleared? - June 17, 2011, 05:39 AM

I'm asked this a lot.

Short answer: No, usually it's unnecessary.

Detailed answer: Most powders are pretty glossy without clear, and clear doesn't necessarily offer any real benefit. Thicker powder isn't tougher, in fact it can sometimes be weaker. If most powders are scratched, they can be wet sanded and buffed out like conventional liquid paints.

Ok, so when is a clear used?

1) Some metallics require clear. This is particularly true of silver metallics, because a lot of them use aluminum flake as the metallic component, and without the protection of a clear, the bright silver color will oxidize into a dull grey. These are also particularly susceptible to attack by chemicals and contaminants, just like bare brushed or polished aluminum. This photo shows a cleared silver metallic that will endure a lot of abuse under the hood.


2) All metallics can benefit from a clear. Cleared metallics have more depth and enhanced color saturation. Perhaps more importantly, if the part is scratched, you can wet sand and buff out the clear, just like conventional paint. If the metallic itself is scratched - or heaven forbid wet sanded - it kills the metallic effect. Clear took this gunmetal metallic from nice to brilliant.


3) Airbrushed graphics require clear. We can apply highly-detailed seamless graphics with a special medium, but the medium is extremely fragile by itself. When airbrushed over a partially-cured base coat of powder, and top coated with a clear powder and fully cured, the two layers of powder crosslink through the graphics (basically melt-through) and you get baked-in graphics that are as tough as the powder itself. Used to handling brake fluid like its plutoneum so it doesn't obliterate your paint? Powder laughs at it.


4) Clears can be used to change gloss. Most powders are already pretty glossy. The high gloss clear we use takes it even higher. Conversely, a gloss powder can be made matte with a matte clear. There are many gloss levels available. Matte clear over this Army theme bicycle frame was essential to the look.


5) Clears can be used for special effects. There are many clears available with flecks of metallics and pearls, which can add a nice touch and still provide the other of the advantages of a clear. We can also custom-mix special effects clears with dry metallic flake, pearl, or ghost pearl pigments, much like conventional wet clears. We can also do some crazy stuff with it, like ghost graphics. This is an example of a custom-mixed blue ghost pearl added to a satin clear.



6) Clears can be used to tint other colors. These are more commonly known as "candy" colors, but there's definitely a lot that can be done with them. We recently did this custom color match to a client's fresh wet painted body, and the right combination was an orange metallic base coat with two coats of a deep candy red.


7) Clear can be used to protect and eliminate maintenance on bare metal. Polished, brushed, or otherwise bare metals can be protected from scratches, chemical attack, and oxidation with a clear. Cleared polished aluminum does not look exactly like bare polished aluminum; there will be a very slight dulling, and visually you can tell its cleared. If you want less maintenance and the full lustre of bare polished metal, there are other ways to do that, like Zoop Seal (a metal sealer that will require re-application every year or two, and can be applied at home). Clear over the polished aluminum on this wheel also gave the enamel pinstripe a surface for strong adhesion.


Len, Master Coater at Figure Finishing
DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

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Powder Coating Magnesium
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Powder Coating Magnesium - June 18, 2011, 06:46 AM

Q: Can magnesium be powder coated? Can magnesium catch on fire in the oven? Will the oven heat warp magnesium parts?

A: (Can it?) Yes, mag coats. (Fire?) No, solid chunks of mag don't like to burn, and PC temps are well below mag auto-ignition temps. (Warp?) Not for motorcycle apps, only a possibility on very thin pieces suspended improperly.


When I first started coating magnesium, I had a good conversation about it with Roger at the Powder Coating Institute.

Turns out most of the information out there about coating mag is a myth.

Here are the noteworthy things about it:
1) Most chemical strippers attack it violently; it should be stripped mechanically (sanding or blasting).
2) Blasting (carefully at reduced pressure) is the preffered method of stripping.
3) Magnesium is very porous (hence its super-light-weight), and therefore is prone to outgassing (tiny bubbles ruining the finish). To combat this A) the part should be prebaked prior to coating at 450F, B) cured at a reduced temperature for a longer cure cycle (e.g. 350 for 30min vs. 400 for 15min), and C) may need a second color coat, or an epoxy primer coat.
4) Since mag is so porous, powder adheres to it VERY well. Bare mag does not need to be re-pickled.
5) Dimensional stability (warping) is only a concern if the wall thickness is less than 0.060". For thin-wall pieces, special consideration is necessary for how the part is hung during baking so it doesn't deform under it's own weight. Heat doesn't warp it, gravity does.


Len, Master Coater at Figure Finishing
DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

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June 18, 2011, 06:53 AM

Can you color match ceramic coating on an exhaust?


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Ceramic Colors (Matching?)
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Ceramic Colors (Matching?) - June 18, 2011, 07:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Can you color match ceramic coating on an exhaust?
No. Currently high-heat ceramics are very limited in color choices. You basically have blacks, greys, silvers (including some warm-tone silvers) and gold. There is a bright red, bright yellow, and bright blue, but they are lower hi-temp. I want to say good to 800-1000* or so (vs 2000*+ with some of the others). I have no experience with those colors so can't say how they hold up, but I suspect they'd fail on headers. I have seen a coater tint his ceramic with a special high-temp pigment, but definitely not along the lines of a match.

I'll also add that ceramics are limited on gloss. Even the "gloss" ceramics are satin at best. The only exception being the polished "chrome-looking" ceramic.

Powder is generally fine on heat shields and cans, though, so those can be color matched. And glossy.


Len, Master Coater at Figure Finishing
DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

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June 19, 2011, 08:24 AM

Why does pitting occur on chrome, can it be fixed, and is there any coating option that protects the chrome from pitting and makes chrome easier to clean? Plus is there any powder coating alternative that looks like chrome?
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Chrome: Failures, Fixes, and Alternatives
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Chrome: Failures, Fixes, and Alternatives - June 20, 2011, 08:02 AM

These are really good questions...

"Chrome" is a funny beast. I put chrome in quotes because there are a lot of different types now, which is also why we see so many failures.

CHROME TYPES:
1) Old school chrome (still the best type) is known as "triple chrome" or more technically "hexavalent chrome," and also "decorative chrome." The process has gained a bad wrap for being extremely toxic and environmentally hazardous, due to traditionally sloppy operations and irresponsible handling of the chromium. Supposedly the old timers would dip their finger in the tanks and taste it to figure out when to add various chemicals. At any rate, it's been regulated out of most states. If you want real triple chrome done in the US, you'll probably be looking at either Tennessee or California. We send stuff to Advanced Plating in TN and Meclec in CA. They both do a nice job (like any other finish, prep is key).

Triple chrome got its name from the three-stage process. The metal part is smoothed (but not perfect), then it gets a thick copper plating. Copper bonds very well to other metals, and polishes well. The copper fills in imperfections, and then its polished to leave the part super-smooth. Then it gets nickel plating. Nickel is most of what you see when you look at chrome. Nickel gives the part the silver color, and it's self-leveling, which gives the finish its mirror-like appearance. It's similar to painting with a paint brush where you have one type of paint that's thick and ends up with brush marks vs one with good flow-out, so the brush marks disappear after a few seconds. Then the third part is the chromium plating, which is super-thin (millionths of an inch). The chromium gives the nickel a bluish tint and protection against oxidation (dulling).

2) "Hard Chrome." This type of chrome you don't see on motorycle/car applications much. Maybe on suspension components. It's a tough, smooth, functional type. It's what you're looking at on the shiny rams of hydraulics.

3) "Flash Chrome" or "single-stage chrome." This is a newer type of chrome (encompassing various types) that pretty much all suck. It was developed to get around environmental regulations, and is popular because its inexpensive, and for the most part it looks like real chrome until it chips off a year or two down the road when its too late to do anything about it.

4) "Trivalent chrome." This is a new type of chrome that's still in the early stages and getting better. From what I've read, it sounds promising. It's very similar to hexavalent chrome in properties and appearance, without the toxicity of the hexavalent process.

5) Fake "triple chrome." "Triple chrome" isn't a real name for chrome, so some places will substitute copper/nickel/chromium for nickel/nickel/chrome or junk/junk/something that looks like chrome and still call it "triple chrome".

6) Chrome-look paints. There are some cool new processes that use a liquid-type finishing system that looks damn good, at least at first. It can be applied over anything, including plastic, fiberglass, CF, etc. And it can be tinted colors or to black or ghost chrome. The weak point is it requires a liquid clear coat, which can yellow or chip, which I suspect has more to do with product selection and the person applying it.

FAILURES:
Triple chrome fails from poor prep. The copper layer will separate from the substrate. Another common failure mode is breach of the finish. If you damage the finish down to the substrate, the substrate starts to oxidize (rust with steel or white/powdery aluminum oxide in aluminum). Once that happens, the oxidation is like cancer and spreads under the chrome, causing propagation of the failure. Worse yet, once the intact chrome starts to delaminate (lift), it traps moisture, which works 24/7 to eat big pits.

Flash chrome fails becuase it's a terrible invention (at least for moto/auto parts). Usually it's applied because it's inexpensive, and the best way to cut expense without a customer knowing right away is to shortcut prep. So inferior bonding compounded by inferior prep. Typical failure mode is big flakes or peeling of whole panels.

CORRECTIVE MEASURES:
When chrome starts to fail, it can get very expensive to correct, a) because chromes are usually difficult to strip, especially on aluminum without damaging the base metal, and b) because the remaining pitting requires a great deal of work to remove or fill. A lot of times its just not worth it. At least not to do a flawless job. The best economical correction is to remove the failing chrome, and disguise the remaining damage (pitting) with a low-gloss finish. Matte black is usually a good choice, or if the piece is really far gone, even a textured color.

Best advice I can give here is let me take a look at it and tell you the options and expected results.

PROTECTING CHROME:
I suppose a clear powder could give you some protection against scratching and make it easier to clean, but it's going to change the look slightly. Good chrome should be pretty low maintenance, maybe requiring a polishing with a quality polish a couple times a year, and maybe a quick dry/buff after washing or rain.

There's probably no saving flash chrome. The powder coating process would almost certainly destroy it, accelerating the inevitable blisters and lifting.

ALTERNATIVES TO CHROME:
In my opinion, there is no substitute for hexavalent chrome. There are "chrome" powders, but if you ever see a photo of one that looks impressively good, the photo was probably taken before it was cleared. Clear is necessary, and clear dulls the chrome look to a shiny grey. It doesn't look bad, but it's not fooling anyone. Its best use is for a base coat under candy colors.

If the chrome is bad and you want the part re-chromed, it might be cheaper to start over, with a painted wheel. You'd have to talk to the chrome plater. Some platers actually inventory OEM wheels, and they'll give you a core discount for sending your old wheels back, while minimizing your down time.

If you're looking for a short-term correction, the wet-application stuff would probably look good for a year or two, but I'd expect to have to redo it periodically. If its not too expensive (I have no idea), it might not be a bad way to go. I don't know enough about it to give definitive advice. I actually want to send some pieces out to have it done so I can see what it looks like first hand and put them through some abuse to get an idea of durability and life.


Len, Master Coater at Figure Finishing
DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

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Last edited by figure_finishing; June 20, 2011 at 08:10 AM..
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Media Blasting ("Sand," "Bead," etc.)
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Media Blasting ("Sand," "Bead," etc.) - June 22, 2011, 08:50 AM

Q: Do you guys bead blast or sand blast, or what do you use?

A: Most people (finishers included) use the terms “sand, media, bead, abrasive” and some other terms interchangeably. “Media blasting” covers all types of blasting. There are dozens of types of media, which include sand, coal slag, glass bead or shard, plastic, aluminum oxide, walnut shell, carbide, baking soda, dry ice, and lots more. They all have their place and specific things they’re good at. We primarily use aluminum oxide (AO), which is a very high quality media that is effective at cleaning paint, contaminants, and rust, and AO is very consistently sized, which minimizes the risk of blasting damage and leaves a very uniform surface profile for optimal adhesion and aesthetic quality of the coating.

A lot of times media is mixed. Its common to cut the primary media with a little bit of glass bead, because the glass is extremely slick (stepping on some spilled on the floor is like hitting ice) and it helps improve the flow of media through the blasting system.

Just like sandpaper, media has grit sizes, and it's sized the same as sandpaper. #60 means the media will pass through a screen that has a grid count of 60 strands/inch. #120 grit is twice as fine as #60. We typically use #80. At very low blast pressure it leaves a very smooth "frosted" finish that's great for prep prior to anodizing, and for gentle cleaning of engine components without removing any base material. At higher pressures, its effective at heavier cleaning of oxidation and occasionally paint (we chemically strip almost everything), and it leaves a slightly rough surface (called an "anchor profile") that maximizes adhesion of powder without being rough enough to affect the smoothness of the end finish.

As an interesting side note, actual sand is rarely used for blasting, except for some large-scale industrial outdoor stuff. It's not consistently sized or shaped (which decreases efficiency and creates inconsistency in substrate roughness), and more importantly its really really hazardous to breathe sand (silica) dust. It causes a specific chronic lung disease called silicosis, where lungs develop a permanent fibrosis. Bad news.


Len, Master Coater at Figure Finishing
DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

Mention you're a DCSB member AFTER I look over your parts and quote you, and receive a 10% discount.
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Last edited by figure_finishing; June 22, 2011 at 08:57 AM..
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Q: Will powder hold up on an exhaust?
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Q: Will powder hold up on an exhaust? - June 27, 2011, 09:02 AM

A: Powder works well on exhaust components that are isolated from direct combustion heat, like mufflers and heat shields. There are some “hi-temp” powders available, but their performance and lifespan are poor, so we don’t offer them.

Most powders are baked at 400*F. And most powders have good over-bake stability, meaning they can sustain cure temps for longer peariods, and often over-temp situations. Generally, when a powder coating is overheated (up to 425-450*F), it does not experience full failure. Usually the result is loss of gloss (some powders start to lose gloss at just over 400*F). Repeated thermal cycling or sustained temperatures in this range will eventually result in embrittlement of the powder and finally chipping.

Hi-temp ceramic is the proper material for headers, pipes, and other hi-heat components. Colors are mostly limited to matte or satin blacks, silvers, greys, or gold. There are also "chome" looking polished ceramics that are great. We do not offer that one at this point.







Len, Master Coater at Figure Finishing
DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

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Last edited by figure_finishing; July 1, 2011 at 08:32 AM.. Reason: Added pics.
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June 27, 2011, 09:07 AM

I give Figure Finishing A+. Took them my pipe for my bike and guy charged me only $25 to do it since he was already about to lay some flat black ceramic on another project. For reference my pipe is like 9in long...shorty exhaust. He did it quickly, and great job. To be honest much much better than powder coating. Got the pipe powder coated at HQ Coating last year and it started rubbing off in less than a yr. I personally dont recommend any work from them. But Ceramic Coating from Figure = A+ work.


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Powder Coating Jugs & Heads
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Powder Coating Jugs & Heads - July 1, 2011, 08:25 AM

Q: I saw powder coated finned (air-cooled) motorcycle cylinders and heads in your portfolio. Does powder coating affect cooling?

A: No. Powder coating is a poor thermal insulator, so the engine temperature is not affected. If you have an oil temperature gauge, you won’t see the needle move. If it runs at 205*F in traffic on a hot day prior to coating, it’ll run at the same temp after coating. I’ve even seen an HD rider claim his black powder coated engine runs 4*F cooler than it did bare. I would probably attribute that number to either variation error in measuring temperature or to slightly different external conditions, since I doubt this was a controlled test. Also, most engines – air-cooled or liquid – are powder coated from the factory, including Harley Davidson motors, which are powder coated to look like a rough aluminum casting (i.e. like they weren’t coated at all). The color is called “Harley Davidson Bead Blast,” which we stock along with the similar but darker “HD Warlock Grey.”









Len, Master Coater at Figure Finishing
DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

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Powder Coating Spoked / Wire Wheels
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Powder Coating Spoked / Wire Wheels - August 10, 2011, 08:37 AM

Q: Can you coat spoked wheels intact? What if I want the spokes a different color?

A: Yes, spoked wheels may be shot intact if you answer "NO" to two questions: 1) Do I want the hub, spokes, nipples, buttons, and rim to include more than one color (leaving something polished/chrome counts as multicolor)? 2) Do I ever plan on adjusting the nipples?

If you want multicolors, it's gotta be broken down and rebuilt. If you want to be able to true your wheel in the future, it's gotta be broken down and rebuilt.


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DC's Premier Custom Powder & Ceramic Coaters
www.FigureFinishing.com
9208 Venture Ct, Unit C-9
Manassas Park VA 20111
866-500-8484

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