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Stickier rubber?...help!
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What failure looks like
 
nrcooled's Avatar
 
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Stickier rubber?...help! - April 1, 2009, 12:02 PM

I have read a ton of threads on tires over the time I've been on the board and I've been doing some searching. With that said, a couple of coaches suggested that, with my current pace, I move up into DOT Race tires.

I was informed that if I get any faster I'll run out of tire (not a good thing). The Pilot Powers have served me well but I guess it's time to move to something a little stickier and purposeful. Since I don't do any street riding I guess I don't have to worry much about double duty.

On the other hand, I've not experienced any significant squirm on the Pilots and they seem to have more to give and I'm not totally convinced that I need to move to DOT Race tire yet. I'm a big fan of "graduating" myself. I don't mod unless I feel that my experience/pace warrants it. But at the same time coaches with WAAAAY more experience then me have suggested that it would be a good idea.

Anyway, other than making changes to the suspension to handle the increased loads that these tires can take what else will need to be adjusted?

Different riding style? Different care/maintenance? Do I NEED tire warmers? How many "warm-up laps" do I need prior to full tilt running? How long will a set of DOT Race last?

It kinda sucks since I really like showing up, unloading the bike, and trying to ride the tires off the damn bike after two laps


'04 600RR - Street
'07 GSX-R 750 - Track only now
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April 1, 2009, 12:10 PM

Congrats .. how about using 190


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April 1, 2009, 12:11 PM

Listen to them, the last thing you want to do is wreck a nice bike instead of spending another 50$ on your tires.

I use warmers because I dont like them squirming around on me while they get up to temp and I want to GO right on the outlap.

As far as the suspension - you might want to go ahead and get it setup at the track next time. Not really because of the race tires, but because if you are getting faster you will likely gain confidence with a better setup bike.

As far as getting the tires to squirm, hopefully the first thing you will notice is the rear tire squirming and stepping out a bit on corner exits. If you've never noticed that, you can probably work on getting on the gas earlier and harder once you have race tires on there.
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April 1, 2009, 12:17 PM

no you dont need warmers but race tires are made to go through 10-15 heat cycles and its a good idea to use warmers so you only use 1 or 2 heat cycles for that day if you dont want to spend alot there are several racers on this board that sell thier takeoffs at half (or less) the cost of a new set....


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April 1, 2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by KneeDragr View Post
Listen to them, the last thing you want to do is wreck a nice bike instead of spending another 50$ on your tires.

I use warmers because I dont like them squirming around on me while they get up to temp and I want to GO right on the outlap.

As far as the suspension - you might want to go ahead and get it setup at the track next time. Not really because of the race tires, but because if you are getting faster you will likely gain confidence with a better setup bike.

As far as getting the tires to squirm, hopefully the first thing you will notice is the rear tire squirming and stepping out a bit on corner exits. If you've never noticed that, you can probably work on getting on the gas earlier and harder once you have race tires on there.
That makes sense. I do get the back-end moving on exit but I know where the limit is so I don't go there that often (not trying to set any records).

I will have to track someone down to help me set the bike up. I suck at suspension knowledge so I have been avoiding it. Currently, my '07 GSX-R is running on the stock suspension settings I've got pictures of MASSIVE squat under acceleration .

The fast right coming on to the straight gave me some pucker a few times at NJMP. I'd exit the corner and really lean off the bike to compensate for the rear tire spinning up some.


'04 600RR - Street
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What failure looks like
 
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April 1, 2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWZelibor View Post
no you dont need warmers but race tires are made to go through 10-15 heat cycles and its a good idea to use warmers so you only use 1 or 2 heat cycles for that day if you dont want to spend alot there are several racers on this board that sell thier takeoffs at half (or less) the cost of a new set....
What determines a heat cycle? Is it a certain temp that they must drop below or a particular amount of time?

When I'm sitting on pit out won't the tires drop below the desired temp?

Sorry for all the n00b questions but I guess this is the place to do it :shrug:


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Street Bonk Bum.....
 
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April 1, 2009, 12:23 PM

a heat cycle is getting up to temp and then cooling down....ie if you have no warmers then 1 session = 1 heat cycle vs comming back in the pit and putting the warmers on and keeping them at temp


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April 1, 2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWZelibor View Post
a heat cycle is getting up to temp and then cooling down....ie if you have no warmers then 1 session = 1 heat cycle vs comming back in the pit and putting the warmers on and keeping them at temp
OK, so I could theoretically get 15 days out of a set?


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Street Bonk Bum.....
 
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April 1, 2009, 12:36 PM

i doubt the tread will last that long Bakari...you have tread wear and heat cycles w/ race tires but running warmers is a good idea to get more life vs using 6+ heat cycles doing a TD


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April 1, 2009, 12:42 PM

My completely unqualified opinion:

Get 'em. The last thing you want to do is reach the limit early in the day in NJ, and be stuck where you're at the rest of your day.

I would suggest not even attempting to mess with your suspension by yourself. Take it CTR or Thermosman or whoever does it at your trackday. Pay them, and let them get you setup. This is not to say don't learn about it, but at least let them get you a solid baseline. Get in good with those guys and their knowledge will prove invaluable. "Skipping a little through T10.." ... "this is why". Great stuff.

At your level, I would take the heat cycle guidelines with a grain of salt, to an extent. Once you can break 20s at Summit, at that pace, is where you'll really need to be careful of cycling too much. Slower than that and your tires should last quite a while. Doing 10 TDs a year, you should be able to easily get one set to last you. Again, not to say the cycles aren't imporant.

Then again, you're riding aggressively on a 750. You could in theory burn through a set in just a few violent sessions. *shrug*

Good luck bro, have fun.

<---green


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April 1, 2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody View Post
My completely unqualified opinion:

Get 'em. The last thing you want to do is reach the limit early in the day in NJ, and be stuck where you're at the rest of your day.

I would suggest not even attempting to mess with your suspension by yourself. Take it CTR or Thermosman or whoever does it at your trackday. Pay them, and let them get you setup. This is not to say don't learn about it, but at least let them get you a solid baseline. Get in good with those guys and their knowledge will prove invaluable. "Skipping a little through T10.." ... "this is why". Great stuff.

At your level, I would take the heat cycle guidelines with a grain of salt, to an extent. Once you can break 20s at Summit, at that pace, is where you'll really need to be careful of cycling too much. Slower than that and your tires should last quite a while. Doing 10 TDs a year, you should be able to easily get one set to last you. Again, not to say the cycles aren't imporant.

Then again, you're riding aggressively on a 750. You could in theory burn through a set in just a few violent sessions. *shrug*

Good luck bro, have fun.

<---green
Very good advice, as always, Woody. I'm gonna move the the DOT Race and maybe make some money back on my Pilots (maybe $60).

FS: Lightly used Pilot Powers

They have a TON of tread in the middle


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April 1, 2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrcooled View Post
V
They have a TON of tread in the middle

MOAR BURNOUTS!


Really, they're cool. Really. Seriously...


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What failure looks like
 
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April 1, 2009, 01:01 PM

Anyone have recommendations on a good set of DOT Race? Dunlops/Michellin/Bridgestone/Pirelli?

I'm lost here at what I should get. Do these things come in compounds? What compound should I get?

This sucks! I hate being uninformed...be right back...going to be Google-ing for a while


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April 1, 2009, 01:16 PM

I've been using the Bridgestone BT002's for a few years now and love 'em. In the past, I have raced on older model Michelin's and Pirelli SC's. For the price, longevity and the amount of grip...the Bridgestone's are great tires in comparison to others on the market, IMO.

Suspension plays a HUGE part in tire wear and grip, as well as geometry of the bike, pressure and wether or not you use warmers. As you get faster, more of these come into play and it would only benefit you more to have it all set up properly from the start.

Suspension (better shock and proper fork spring/internals) is the best way to go but simple tuning of your stock stuff can do wonders but like someone else mentioned earlier, get someone like Jon at CTR (been doing my suspension for a few years) or Mike aka Thermosman to do it


Throttle or brakes, there are no other options
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April 1, 2009, 01:26 PM

what pace are we talking here? Good sport tires like Pilot Power 2ct's are much more capable than most people give them credit for. I can run '24s at summit point without any issue on pilot powers, the tire will grip just fine. I only ask because race tires are expensive as hell and wear out quickly.

As far as tire warmers, no you don't need them, I've run multiple trackdays on a set of Dunlop D211 tires without using warmers, give your tires one lap, two to be extra safe and then punch the go button. I've raced on stone cold tires, after a long red flag and a warm up lap where I was stuck in traffic and couldn't get up to speed...tires stuck fine, and street tires don't need warmers.

asking about tires is like asking oil, there are a million different opinions. I hate michelins, they aren't bad tires, they stick well, I ran em, but they give no warning, they stick until they are done and then they slide big with little warning. I've raced dunlops extensively and bridgestones a fair bit. Dunlops stick like glue, but they move constantly, the bike will shimmy and shake and slide, which I like, you always know whats going, they are very progressive in regards to wear. They also have the most edge grip of anything I've ever used, I could put the tire on the ragged edge in T3 at VIR and still be abusive with the throttle, they stuck well.

Pirellis are kinda in between, they are great tires and stick exceptionally well, IMO they don't give the same level of feedback that dunlops do, but they stick better than bridgestones.


ETA: as far as compound, get medium compounds, its a nice middle ground balancing wear and grip for trackdays


-Craig

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