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not sure this is even considered a crash
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not sure this is even considered a crash - July 20, 2006, 06:30 AM

Went for my first lengthy (4 hours) group ride this past weekend out to WV/Western MD. All the "hard" parts were cake, but a simple stop got the best of me.

Coming to an abrupt stop in a straight line (was watching rider in front of me who was fixated on something other than the people in front of him) , too much rear brake, rear end skid in to a puddle, went out, went down at about 5mph. Lost a mirror ($25 at coleman yesterday), glove did its job (got some SP1s, which I'm not sure I like too much), deep bruise on my hip, shoulder is sore, and got some new rash on my upper and middle right fairings... I can likely repair them myself.

Moral of the story? Take "always use the rear brake" as taught by the MSF with a grain of salt. I will not be using my rear brake any longer aside from holding myself on a hill when I want to go hands-free.

Last edited by Mike C; July 21, 2006 at 08:17 AM..
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July 20, 2006, 06:49 AM

Sounds like you need to practice controling a rear skid. You should be able to move the bike around with your knees. And no....I'm not kidding. I use it on the track when I'm trying to clear space coming into a hard braking zone. Wiggle the bike side to side.

Back to the parking lot for you.

Really....the rear brake is useful. But it can bite quickly. I almost invariably use the front exclusively in most situations. But the back brake does have it's uses.

Glad to hear that you are mostly ok.


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July 20, 2006, 06:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MudDawg
Back to the parking lot for you.
harsh!
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Kat
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July 20, 2006, 07:06 AM

Back to the parking lot isn't harsh. Any rider who wants to keep her skills returns the parking lot regularly to learn new things that are just too dangerous to practice in traffic.

Always use your back brake when doing a real stop. Take some time in the parking lot to learn how much is too much (I locked up my rear brake twice, but didn't drop it either time). If you need to make a really quick stop (and I'm guessing at some point we ALL have that moment) then you'll want to use all your braking power. If your rear wheel is on the ground, you'll want its help while stopping.

Don't be afraid to hit the parking lot on a regular basis. It's one of the safer ways to learn new things without paying for track time.


**Sara**
"She wont be so fuckable covered in road rash." -boomchic00

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Kevers

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July 20, 2006, 07:20 AM

that smiley isn't all that obvious, but it is the tongue one, which i take to mean sarcasm

i'll surely play around in the lot behind my house, but i'm getting VERY mixed opinions on rear brake usage. all of my friends (some have A TON of experience) say i shouldn't bother with it as it's simply too touchy. based on my understanding of weight transfer (from reading a billion books on auto racing), in an emergency stop my rear tire will have nearly 0 weight on it, which means its effective braking will be nearly 0. why not just keep it rolling to avoid lockup?
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July 20, 2006, 07:21 AM

Most of the time people don't realise that they need to be able to release the brakes before they stop. Learn to hit the brakes hard and then get off them before coming to a stop. This is hard to learn but very important when you need to slow down fast and then gas it to get out of a tight spot.


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July 20, 2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike C
....

Moral of the story? Take "always use the rear brake" as taught by the MSF with a grain of salt. I will not be using my rear brake any longer aside from holding myself on a hill when I want to go hands-free.
From the MSF course. Rear breaks are for low speed turns/ maneuvers. Always use both breaks to stop quick in a short distance.
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July 20, 2006, 08:08 AM

The VFR is a heavy bike. You need to use both brakes. It is the only bike with which I have worn through several sets of rear pads.

How did your rear tire end up in a puddle, but not the front?


'08 MARRC Expert Racer of the Year
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July 20, 2006, 08:11 AM

Rear brake is great for chipping off a couple mph while driving in traffic and right before turns.. but most especially when you have to put the OH SHIT stopping power down. The problem occurs when the adrenaline kicks in. Your leg is like 40x as powerful as your arrm so its easy to stand on that break pedal and put the Stop down vs squeezing the brake lever hard. Once you start so slide unless you have a lot of practice you're in it for the duration. Pop off the brake without having full control and you can do weird fishtails and flop it down. I park my bike at a storage facility with lots of little roads and buildings all over and I routinely warm up and practice there before going out into the meat grinder of NoVA traffic. Was practicing HARD stops just yesterday and left a couple prize black strips in the lot from hitting that back too hard. Better to have the back giving you 1% more stopping power than 0% as that 1% could be the 2 feet difference between hitting and not hitting that F'ing mini van that stopped for no G-D reason.


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July 20, 2006, 08:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVbadguy
How did your rear tire end up in a puddle, but not the front?
the rear was swaying back and forth by the time i reached the puddle. the front very well may have hit it, but the puddle is not what caused the skid. i believe it is what caused me to not be able to save it.
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July 20, 2006, 11:21 AM

You have very little conventional steerage while braking, front or back. Mudawg is talking about trail braking which can give you a good angle into a turn, especially a turn you took too hot, and frankly beside the parkinglot foolaround stunting I've never trail braked so I wouldn't be someone to give advice on that.

Point is, a lot of people panic and clamp on thier brake for too long or too hard, they lose steerage, balance, and they drop. Accelerating is what will give you a lot of control over the bike. But more importantly (and I have trouble myself with this) ride YOUR bike, not the guys in front of you. You need to ride like you're by yourself, otherwise you can target fixate and follow someone into a cornfield, or worse.


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July 20, 2006, 11:26 AM

No, mudawg is more refering to the term "backing it in" and not trail braking


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July 20, 2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbrf4269
No, mudawg is more refering to the term "backing it in" and not trail braking
Brakes on the street are meant for coming to a complete stop...which doesn't happen at the track (anyone coming to a complete stop on the track is asking to get killed) so they are two VERY different approaches, braking on the track is meant for setting up corner entry for the most efficient exit and at times setting up for passes.
Trail braking on the street is not recommended period...slow down and there should not be a need to trail brake, trail braking on the street is just asking for trouble. Corner adjustment is not "trail braking" A lot of times people confuse the term "trail braking" so ask one of the experts here on the board or look the term up from a reliable source.

Hopefully, that makes sense...moral of the story...do whatever works for you BUT...do practice panic stops! It's the key tool to avoiding accidents should you have to stop!


Chris
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July 20, 2006, 12:03 PM

i'm very familiar with trail braking; i've been tracking my car for around 5 years now... no way i'll be practicing it on a bike on the street. i will definitely be practicing panic stops tonight
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July 20, 2006, 12:24 PM

I guess I'm going to have to clarify...

1. Trail braking. Generally considered as using the front brakes while beginning your turn up to the apex. This causes the front end to compress altering the geometry enough to make bikes turn sharper. I use this regularly on the track. Please be very very careful attempting it. (Make sure you have had your suspension tuned so you get feedback for slides happening.) Otherwise you will be on your ass pretty quick. Keith Code's books use the analogy that you have $1.00 of traction. You are using up to 100% of it for turning depending on the speeds. So if you are at full lean....ya really don't have traction left for any braking.

2. Rear brakes. Coming to a turn can be used to again...alter the geometry a bit. You can cause the bike to squat. This will allow you to apply the front brakes harder. The downside it that you have a much smaller percentage of traction for rear braking when compared to the front tire. It will lock up in an instant. If you are unsure...tap it gently and repeatedly like keeping time to music. I tend to do this when I'm into a turn hot on the track and know I won't be able to safely back it in. (Maybe riders around.) A little extra braking is still a good thing.

3. Backing it in. Can be accomplished with the rear brake or engine braking. (If you have high enough compression you would be amazed.) Don't think so? Try going into a turn with no engine braking. (clutch fully in) versus having the throttle off and engine engaged. (No clutch) This is a tricky beastie and I seriously don't suggest trying this on a steet bike. Go pick up a POS dirtbike and enjoy. That's the place to learn how to do it. I've got almost 20 years of street riding, 9 years of roadracing, and several years of dirt wrecking....and I can still fuck it up in a split second. And I do....on my dirtbike. (I nicknamed myself 'Lawn Dart' at the American Supercamp for a reason....it fit.)

So it a nutshell...practice HARD BRAKING. Any idiot can twist the throttle in a straight line. That's not skill. Not machismo. Not intelligence. That's the engine you bought doing the work. Braking and turning....that's where races are won and lost. (And where lives are saved on the street.) Don't believe me? Ask around about what I ride on the track for fun. (OK...so it looks like a YSR50 when I ride it....)

Always look at a wreck and figure out what YOU could have done better to avoid it. Mentally review it...and what you would do if the situation happened again. Visualizing the action gives you a higher probability of being able to perform the action when you need it.

Signed,

Fat Bastard


I want my baby back, baby back, baby back....Chileeeeee's bay back...

Last edited by MudDawg; July 21, 2006 at 12:27 PM..
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