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VIR Turn 7 Highside Analysis
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LiterBike Desperado
 
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VIR Turn 7 Highside Analysis - October 8, 2010, 09:38 AM

So, as you may already know, I high-sided in Turn 7 @ VIR this week (Oct 4). I thought I would share my analysis of what I think went wrong so you can avoid my mistakes. I'll post the video this weekend.

Mistake #1: Didn't bleed air from the tires after a significant temperature change. It had been raining all night and was a cold and foggy Monday morning. I took my cold tire pressures and needed to add about 3 psi to compensate. By the time the 3rd session rolled around, the temperature probably had risen from the 40's to the 50's and possibly 60's. Think about it, in the seasonal transition we're going through, you can have siginficant temperature changes to deal with. The tire carcasses were unable to flex and heat up to optimal operating temperature. On top of that, they are running on a cold track that, unlike in the middle of june, is not getting warmed by the weak fall sun.

Mistake #2: Fixating on the actions of the riders in front of me. Approaching T7, there were two bikes about 10 bike lengths in front of me that I was keeping pace with. All laps prior to the lap of the crash, I turned-in at the recommended turn-in cone. You'll see in the forthcoming video that on the crash lap approach to T7 that I turn-in a fraction of a moment after the bikes in front of me do. This had me turning in way too early and resulted in an extreme lean angle. I cannot absolutely confirm this because I didn't have my butt-cam running, but I probably didn't get off the seat as much as I should have as well. Had I gotten off the seat more, the lean angle would not have been as extreme.

Cold tires + Too much lean angle + Off camber VIR North T7 (even though I don't think I went too wide where it slopes off) = HIGHSIDE!

Don't make the same mistake I did. Ride your bike, not the bikes of the riders in front of you. And check your tire pressures through the day, especially during seasons of wildly swinging temperatures like in the early fall or late spring.


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Last edited by LoneStar; October 8, 2010 at 09:41 AM..
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October 8, 2010, 09:49 AM

Glad you are ok. I saw the aftermath when your bike was brought back on the crash truck.

It's great to finally put a face with the name...to bad your day ended so early.


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October 8, 2010, 09:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DC-MOTO View Post
Glad you are ok. I saw the aftermath when your bike was brought back on the crash truck.

It's great to finally put a face with the name...to bad your day ended so early.
thanks man. yeah good to meet you too. just talked to your boy peter who said you told him about it. the bike is actually not to bad. i ripped the front-end off, but had a cracked rearset plate and my leathers were destroyed, so i threw in the towel. still had a good time hanging out. i plan to attack VIR N T7 as the first track outing next season.

see you out there.


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October 8, 2010, 10:12 AM

Were you running the same VIR track that we were running on Cornerspeed or a different one?
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October 8, 2010, 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaS
Were you running the same VIR track that we were running on Cornerspeed or a different one?
Same. VIR North. Infamous Turn 7 that goes up the hill to the right and into the roller coaster.


CCS/ASRA #134
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'09 Ducati 848 [CCS/ASRA #134]
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October 8, 2010, 10:31 AM

I like T7......

Matt, you have those vids available?


http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...844F779ADF89CA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDlf6hA6TY

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October 8, 2010, 10:37 AM

Thanks for the write up and Glad you walked. I look forward to this upcoming season!!


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October 8, 2010, 10:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by #452-LE
I like T7......

Matt, you have those vids available?
I think T7 to the front straight is the best section of track I've ever ridden.


CCS/ASRA #134
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2013 FINAL ASRA/AMA/CCS Mid-Atlantic Standings
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#1 ASRA SportBike AM
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My bikes:
'09 Ducati Monster 1100S (Longhorn Edition) [street]
'09 Ducati 848 [CCS/ASRA #134]
'08 Ducati 848 [CCS/ASRA #134]
'05 SV 650 SS-build [CCS/ASRA #134]

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October 8, 2010, 11:06 AM

Damn, that one. I like that turn too. I do remember the track was a little beat up right where you cut right and start to go uphill. There were a couple different lines that they were telling us that people take there. I always ended up going over the beat up patch there. As a matter of fact, I think I remember now them telling us that it is possible to highside there.

Quote:
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Same. VIR North. Infamous Turn 7 that goes up the hill to the right and into the roller coaster.
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October 8, 2010, 11:07 AM

I'm ready for the video now!
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October 8, 2010, 11:15 AM

Glad your ok Darron, and I agree T7-> str8 is awesome. But then again i've only ridden VIR North and Main.
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October 8, 2010, 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by #452-LE View Post
I like T7......

Matt, you have those vids available?
Mike,
I will have to get those vids to you on a thumb drive.



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October 8, 2010, 11:22 AM

I'm no expert at all.

T7 VIR - Off camber tight right hander

You highsided, so the rear slid rider left, caught, and pitched you into the grass. A lot of people wreck there.

It could have been a ton of things, one thing I've learned is at (my) level which is maybe 75th percentile I can run a race with 38lbs in the rear tire of an SV (a lot different than a 600+) and I'll feel the bike slide a little but really I'll be within, like, 1 second of my normal lap times, I don't bother to run warmers on the SV.

I say this to illustrate how people who are not super fast are not as effected by tire pressure or track conditions or tire heat or whatever excuse for the bike leaving you. This leaves the only possible answer... rider error. That turn has a 24" good spot where it's not real off camber, you might not have been right on the line and if you gave it too much... she goes.

That's not a slow turn like 4... but it's one of the slower turns on North course. Go slow in the slow stuff... you won't gain time there... go fast in the fast sections. Not that I'm saying 7 is slow...


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October 8, 2010, 12:59 PM

Analysis of a crash, I like this idea a lot. The price of these lessons are steep so might as well learn as much as possible. There is almost never a single cause, but a combination of factors so it's good to think through them all.

Early turn in is a common thread in a great many crashes, although turn 7 there does allow for multiple lines.

Getting off the seat more helps but only marginally.

Tire pressure gets more important the faster you go.

Highsides from simply too much lean angle are very rare. It takes a combination of too much gas for the lean angle/traction/camber/elevation

A lot of highsides happen because a rider thinks (even subconsciously) damn I went too slow into this turn. Then tries to compensate for it.

The above is especially true at VIR turn 7 because it goes up a steep hill, which slows the bike down. So you either carry more speed in than looks prudent, or roll the gas on heavier than "normal". If doing the latter technique then you may have to ease back at the crest because of course the bike gets light there.

And wouldn't you know, the crest of the hill is right around the exit where you're wanting to stand the bike up and really get on the gas. A dastardly design for sure.

We try to ride our own rides but the reality is that other riders on track often affect us in subtle ways. Hypothetical example: There's a rider ten bike lengths ahead. I'm good in this section up to the top of the hill where one of the three best passing spots on this track sits. To get a good run I (subconsciously) twist just a little sooner/harder out of 7.

Without standing trackside I can only offer the above general thoughts to chew on.


BECAUSE I GET OFF ON IT!
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October 8, 2010, 03:25 PM

Good stuff! Let me respond ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WKDBLD View Post
Early turn in is a common thread in a great many crashes, although turn 7 there does allow for multiple lines.
it does. but you have to adapt behavior mid-turn and at exit for whatever line your choose. for example, i've run mad-wide through that turn and just know i have to delay my drive out. so, an early turn-in isn't really the mistake, it's what i do mid-turn and exit that changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WKDBLD View Post
Getting off the seat more helps but only marginally..


i have a feeling that i was riding on the margin of traction. i haven't looked at my data logger data yet, but i think i was pretty neutral with a cracked open throttle all the way up the hill. it sounded as if it broke loose without a huge spin-up that you expect when you get on it too soon. in general, i'm very gentle on the throttle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WKDBLD View Post
Tire pressure gets more important the faster you go.

Not sure how fast your talking about here. I ridden fast enough that when I break it down at the end of the straight my front tire chatters. Bled a couple psi out -- presto! problem solved. I've also been called fast by the Cornerspeed coaches. And they warned me to get off my seat or I'm gonna high-side. Ooops! [note: I've been informed you are a Cornerspeed coach -- I'll be back next season and request you roll with me]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WKDBLD View Post
Highsides from simply too much lean angle are very rare. It takes a combination of too much gas for the lean angle/traction/camber/elevation
A high-side is related to traction. All of the above that you mentioned are factors of traction. Since I believe that my throttle was neutral throughout the turn, I was leaned over more than usual because of early turn-in, and the camber was going off as I encroached on the outside of the turn b/c my exit is going to be a wider line, plus elevation (which I didn't mention) may have pushed me just over the edge. when you see the video, it will seem that it just gave away without any major change in input. granted, it is hard to tell if I just nudged the throttle a millimeter and it was just enough to put the tire over it's threshold.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WKDBLD View Post
A lot of highsides happen because a rider thinks (even subconsciously) damn I went too slow into this turn. Then tries to compensate for it.


i was ok with the speed i was going which is usually between 55 and 60mph according to my data logger. i planned to go faster next time around if there was one. you can ball up that hill, but you just gotta be aware of the dynamics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WKDBLD View Post
And wouldn't you know, the crest of the hill is right around the exit where you're wanting to stand the bike up and really get on the gas. A dastardly design for sure.


It's pure evil!!! But I love it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by WKDBLD View Post
We try to ride our own rides but the reality is that other riders on track often affect us in subtle ways. Hypothetical example: There's a rider ten bike lengths ahead. I'm good in this section up to the top of the hill where one of the three best passing spots on this track sits. To get a good run I (subconsciously) twist just a little sooner/harder out of 7.


i'm a rookie and this was my first experience and realization of how you can get ahead of yourself and onto another rider's bike to your demise. was actually an amazing revealation to me.

and after the crash, this was the first conclusion i had come to. i figured i must have popped the throttle to try to match their acceleration/drive coming out of the turn when i wasn't in the proper position to do so. but then after watching the video over and over again, i didn't think i had hit the throttle. i could be wrong however, only the data logger, which will show my throttle position, will tell the truth of the matter. i'll get that data downloaded this weekend too.


CCS/ASRA #134
www.facebook.com/FullerMoto
2013 FINAL ASRA/AMA/CCS Mid-Atlantic Standings
-------------------------------------------------------------
#1 ASRA SportBike AM
#3 AMA 600cc SuperBike Grand National Championship
#2 AMA 1000cc SuperBike Grand National Championship
#1 CSS Southeast Unlimited GP AM

2012 CCS Atlantic & Mid-Atlantic SuperTwins AM Champion
FullerMoto * Woodcraft * Armour Bodies * DC-MOTO/AMSOIL * MotoWheels * Gotham Cycles * XT Racing * Figure Finishing LLC * Full Spectrum Power * HelmetCameraOutlet.com

My bikes:
'09 Ducati Monster 1100S (Longhorn Edition) [street]
'09 Ducati 848 [CCS/ASRA #134]
'08 Ducati 848 [CCS/ASRA #134]
'05 SV 650 SS-build [CCS/ASRA #134]

'08 Ducati 848 [Parting Out]
'05 Yamaha R1 [Sold]

Last edited by LoneStar; October 9, 2010 at 06:54 AM..
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